Passing Judgement on Modelers!

[Ascension]

Not necessarily the forum. Just the whole guitar community has the cork-sniffer purist types who won’t seem to entirely vanish who at this point in the technology, likely can’t tell a mic’d tube amp from a well dialled in model with an IR, especially in a complete song (where it really counts) but have still kept the same opinion where anyone could pick out a POD direct to the board. If you’ve never encountered them, you probably will eventually.

My beef with modelers is on several fronts. I agree with you that they can sound great in the studio and that they have their place. I have spent a LOT of time money and effort trying to use them live. I finally chose to walk away and go back to a simple tube amp rig for specific reasons.
First off I have spent hours in programing these things only to get to gig plug them into a system and have it sound like CRAP! Had to try and edit on the fly at a gig. Also the patch that sounded great at the house on my system didn't cut it live at all with the team I got pulled into play with again forced to try and edit on the fly at the gig. Then have had reliability issues due to unstable power even running a Furman. So went back to a small pedal board and several tube amps with real cabs miced or a iso cab with my rigs.
Also live they just do not respond to touch and feel like a real tube rig. My real amps are simple reliable easy to tweak on the fly and consistent. Because of these things I have now abandoned any attempt to try and use modelers live.

[Ascension]

I'm using modelers for the last 20 years. IMHO if you compare a fairly new modeler and a real amp recorded with a microphone, both thru studio monitors, you won't be able to distinguish one from the other (comparing apples to apples). Add other tracks to the mix and it will be impossible. Same modeler thru powered PA speakers and same real amp thru guitar cabs, in the same room, and good chance the real amp will sound better. Because it's not the same playback engine (comparing apples to oranges). That's the sound people are comparing and saying modelers are not as good.

So the comments I read/ear about real amps being better than modelers are mostly coming from people who never heard their amp thru a microphone, out of studio monitors (comparing apples to oranges). Or from people playing live and earring their amp onstage instead of what is coming from the FOH.

I'm used to earring my modeler thru FOH so when I go to live shows I can compare the miked amp against my modeler and most of the time my modeler sound as good. Only difference is when I'm closer to the stage as I'm also earring the real amp.

Comparing a $3k Mesa Boogie against a $300 Katana will also be like comparing apples to oranges...

Good post. I record most of the gigs I play and one of the reasons is so I can hear with my rig sounds like not on stage but through the FOH. This was one of the things that made me abandon running a modeler live all together. I got MUCH better tones in the FOH with my miced real amps than I did with a modeler. There is an old saying the tape doesn't like and I find that it is very true.
Example would be here. A community worship event never played at this Church or with most of these folks had no practice only a quick run through and sound check and played off basic charts. I brought my little tiny Mesa Subway rocket set it up at super low stage level ran almost no effects and threw a Beta 57 on it. Quick to set up easy to tweak and sounded great in the FOH mix with no drama. Have never been able to do this with a modeler.
https://youtu.be/S3IBwdRkJDA another similar event this time i ran my US built 50 watt PRS Archon rig on a 2/12 because I knew what the environment was. Still had my Ax Trac iso cab in the car so I could run silent stage if i needed to. Quick and easy to set up sounded great in the overall mix and there was no drama.

https://youtu.be/WZfBmzCIvfA

Far cry from my experiences with running modelers live.

[Blille]

My beef with modelers is on several fronts. I agree with you that they can sound great in the studio and that they have their place. I have spent a LOT of time money and effort trying to use them live. I finally chose to walk away and go back to a simple tube amp rig for specific reasons.
First off I have spent hours in programing these things only to get to gig plug them into a system and have it sound like CRAP! Had to try and edit on the fly at a gig. Also the patch that sounded great at the house on my system didn't cut it live at all with the team I got pulled into play with again forced to try and edit on the fly at the gig. Then have had reliability issues due to unstable power even running a Furman. So went back to a small pedal board and several tube amps with real cabs miced or a iso cab with my rigs.
Also live they just do not respond to touch and feel like a real tube rig. My real amps are simple reliable easy to tweak on the fly and consistent. Because of these things I have now abandoned any attempt to try and use modelers live.

As a fellow CCM Sunday player I gotta encourage you to give it another try

I was where you are a couple years back. Now I take my tiny pedalboard with a HX Stomp and a couple pedals and it works great. Way less hassle and I can still tweak on the fly. Way more reliable and less sound guy dependent than a mic + amp solution. I play regularly in a couple of Churches and most folks have a Helix Floor, Fractal or some kind of Stomp + pedals solution. In one they have a room to mic up the amps and they have a few to choose from including AC30, Two Rock etc and they are just collecting dust.

Things have improved significantly in the last couple of years. You can also buy patches for the specific songs you play to make it easier.

[Gtrjunior]

I have played Amos that sound great….and ones that sound awful.

I have also played modelers that were equally great…and ones that were awful as well.


Personally, I’m a Kemper guy. For me it sounds the closest to the real thing that I e ever tried. I like the ease of tweakability it has verses some of the other modelers as well.

That said, not every profile sounds amazing. And others will blow your mind.

[JOLLY]

I have played Amps that sound great….and ones that sound awful.

I have also played modelers that were equally great…and ones that were awful as well.


Personally, I’m a Kemper guy. For me it sounds the closest to the real thing that I e ever tried. I like the ease of tweakability it has verses some of the other modelers as well.

That said, not every profile sounds amazing. And others will blow your mind.

I'm with you 100% on all of this.

[maug2122]

Well, in a sense none of this matters very soon as it relates to modelers modeling classic amps -as people are teaching AI to perfectly match anything to the original in an anechoic chamber by using robotic servo control of mics and access to all control parameters of the product -so you will know soon enough what a products full potential is.

I honestly think it's silly though -why waste the power of digital trying to copy old things instead of finally making some new sounds.

I recreated some great tube based overdrives/ distortions with my Digitech 2112 SGS's 12ax7 tubes to recreate my VHT Pitbull, Deliverance, Carvin X-100 B, Legacy 1,2,3 , V3, Marshall JCM 800, Mesa Boggie Mark 5, Fender Princeton, Twin Reverb, Peavey JSX, Triple X and Soldano SLO 100.
With the 2112's Analog overdrives/ distortions , I recreated the Randall War Head, RG 80 100, Carvin SX 300, Roland 120 Jazz Chourus amp or a 1980's Rockman .

After that I made copies of those patches and made them different .
The Digitech 2112 SGS is only a clone of the Johnson Millenium Amps from the 1990's.

[ehdwuld]

My Digitech GNX3000 will let me fade from a distorted metal preset to an acoustic simulation with the rocker footswitch

Real world cant do that

[El Dunco]

My Digitech GNX2000 will let me fade from a distorted metal preset to an acoustic simulation with the rocker footswitch

Real world cant do that

The ol’ patch morphing. Would be a cool feature to bring back.

[ehdwuld]

It is an older unit
hyper patch or some such

[Demanic]

Vintage 2010. Line 6 and Bogner. Oh and Carvin for the cab. 4 12M-70's.
The thing sounds fantastic clean or dirty. Way more presets than I could use in a lifetime.
Line 6 models going through a Bogner designed power section. 1 12AX7 preamp tube into 4 5881's.

[maug2122]

What blows me away is how clever, modern marketing has become .
They push guitarists , bassists and other musicians to buy the latest trendy gear .

I am more than sure, someone 15 to 30 years from now, will be thoroughly enjoying today's Kempers and other modelers of today .... and still sound amazing .

[ehdwuld]

What blows me away is how clever, modern marketing has become .
They push guitarists , bassists and other musicians to buy the latest trendy gear .

I am more than sure, someone 15 to 30 years from now, will be thoroughly enjoying today's Kempers and other modelers of today .... and still sound amazing .

There are people that can make a Gorilla amp sound great

I ain't one

[NegativeEase]

There are people that can make a Gorilla amp sound great

I ain't one

Yeah agree, you ain't one... lol... I kid Ed.... I meant yeah, I agree, I have a friend who can make any amp sound incredible -makes me crazy -he can make a beltpack amp with a 3 inch speaker or a ToysRUs kids first amp sound like a Princeton