Double Cream pickups

[CTN]

I was just reading up on the new SD Parchment bobbins, and was wondering, what exactly is the deal with double cream pickups from other manufacturers? I know Dimarzio has a copyright? patent? on double cream bobbins, but that's kinda dumb. It's like Ferrari not allowing any other car companies to sell red cars.

Would another company be able to get away with selling what essentially amounts to double cream if they didn't call it cream?

As it is, DiMarzio's "cream" is darker than SD's, so technically it's not even the same colour. Do they just have a patent on the concept of a double cream pickup? and if so, how do they define "cream"?

And how does Carvin get away with selling double cream pickups openly?

I do know that you can get double cream pickups from SD if you order it from the custom shop with a cover, but that's a little bit retarded, and I fully realize that SD are forced to do that because of DiMarzio's patent nonsense, but there's gotta be a better way to do it.

[Luke Duke]

Re: Double Cream pickups

I was just reading up on the new SD Parchment bobbins, and was wondering, what exactly is the deal with double cream pickups from other manufacturers? I know Dimarzio has a copyright? patent? on double cream bobbins, but that's kinda dumb. It's like Ferrari not allowing any other car companies to sell red cars.

Much worse than that, it's a trademark so it NEVER expires.double creme pickups are considered "trade dress". Falbo once explained it that a DeWalt drill is yellow, a Makita is teal, and a Milwaukee is red and that essentially Dmz stands on the same ground.

Would another company be able to get away with selling what essentially amounts to double cream if they didn't call it cream?

Hard to say, everyone is too scared of the Dmz legal team.

As it is, DiMarzio's "cream" is darker than SD's, so technically it's not even the same colour. Do they just have a patent on the concept of a double cream pickup? and if so, how do they define "cream"?

Great point, I wish I knew.

And how does Carvin get away with selling double cream pickups openly?

I actually know this one! It's because there are 11 poles.

I do know that you can get double cream pickups from SD if you order it from the custom shop with a cover, but that's a little bit retarded, and I fully realize that SD are forced to do that because of DiMarzio's patent nonsense, but there's gotta be a better way to do it.

Until SD gets Gibson on board and GIBSON says "hey we did that in 50s" Dmz will keep the trademark. Remember it's a trademark because patents and copyrights run out eventually.

Luke

[DeanSweden]

Re: Double Cream pickups

I do know that you can get double cream pickups from SD if you order it from the custom shop with a cover

You can't do that no more

[Edgecrusher]

Re: Double Cream pickups

Gibson DIDNT do it in the 50's... the bobbins were originally white and turned cream and they were never sold without a cover. Thats why gibson hasnt and WONT do anything about it.

The dimarzio trademark is for double cream open coils with 12 round pole pieces. Carvins with their extra pole pieces dont violate this. Same goes with Bill Lawerence selling blade pickups.

You cant call the color another name. The trade mark is for the look not the name. Lots of small manufacturers have tried selling double cream even guys who are basically winding in the back bedroom advertising "aged white" pickups have received cease and desist letters from dimarzio

[Edgecrusher]

Re: Double Cream pickups

You can't do that no more

have you confirmed this or are you just repeating something you've heard?

[DeanSweden]

Re: Double Cream pickups

have you confirmed this or are you just repeating something you've heard?

I asked but you can try if you want to

[Chad]

Re: Double Cream pickups

Considering how easily hybrids can be made, it would be interesting if some enterprise would buy zebra and reverse zebra Duncans in mass quantity and start hybridizing them into double creams and selling them. Wonder where that would fall legally?

[Luke Duke]

Re: Double Cream pickups

Gibson DIDNT do it in the 50's... the bobbins were originally white and turned cream and they were never sold without a cover. Thats why gibson hasnt and WONT do anything about it.

They were CALLED double white by collectors, the plastic was not originally white it was creme, the same color as the pickup rings, binding, and pickguards.

It's true Gibson never sold them without a cover, but they did manufacture them under a cover. I believe if they pushed hard enough they could bring Dmz down, but they won't so we just pay 15 bucks more buy them under covers and deal with it.

Luke

[Edgecrusher]

Re: Double Cream pickups

They were CALLED double white by collectors, the plastic was not originally white it was creme, the same color as the pickup rings, binding, and pickguards.

It's true Gibson never sold them without a cover, but they did manufacture them under a cover. I believe if they pushed hard enough they could bring Dmz down, but they won't so we just pay 15 bucks more buy them under covers and deal with it.

Luke

They cant push hard enough for it... a trademark isnt over who was first to do something.. its over who is known for something. Gibson didnt sell the double creams openly they were done using whatever bobbins were available. Some were zebra some were double... most werent. So it would be EXTREMELY difficult for them prove a case that they had intentionally done this as a trade mark. Especially now.. since a few years have lapsed and they didnt challenge it any court is going to aks why they didnt challenge the trade mark to begin with.

[Edgecrusher]

Re: Double Cream pickups

Considering how easily hybrids can be made, it would be interesting if some enterprise would buy zebra and reverse zebra Duncans in mass quantity and start hybridizing them into double creams and selling them. Wonder where that would fall legally?

Wouldnt be a legal work around that you could get away with on a mass scale.

Keep this in mind when you have a trademark you have to defend it. Meaning if someone is violating it you have to take action. Even if all you do is have you lawyer send them a cease and desist letter you still have to do this. If they dont do it the trademark can be considered abandon and will be put back into the public domain.

[uOpt]

Re: Double Cream pickups

It is a special item in the space of trademarks, as color trademark.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colour_trademark

These things are kind of shaky, I'm watching the space to get this stupid one out of the way. If the US legal system gets really fed up with the abuse of intellectual property laws over the current patent madness in the mobile electronics space they might also clean up this issue which was clearly a bad idea in the first place.

I rate the chance that DiMarzio would survive a determined legal assault on this trademark as slim even in the current framework, but it would have substantial cost associated to it.

In the field of guitar pickup making (or generally guitar parts making) only DiMarzio seems to be happy to spend a major part of their revenue on lawyers. We should probably keep it that way as long as they don't abuse their position even more.

[CTN]

Re: Double Cream pickups

see ^^^ that's why I wondered how they define their colour.

Cuz you can't just say "cream" you need to specify it somehow, like maybe with Pantone colours or something.

On that ground, another company could quite easily sell pickups with bobbins of a slightly different colour but which still look pretty much cream. and in fact, SD does that right now, although without putting two "cream" coils side by side.

(I know this because I had a zebra SD and a zebra DMZ in the same guitar at the same time and it always bugged me how the black coils looked the same but the cream coils were mismatched)

[uOpt]

Re: Double Cream pickups

see ^^^ that's why I wondered how they define their colour.

Cuz you can't just say "cream" you need to specify it somehow, like maybe with Pantone colours or something.

On that ground, another company could quite easily sell pickups with bobbins of a slightly different colour but which still look pretty much cream. and in fact, SD does that right now, although without putting two "cream" coils side by side.

(I know this because I had a zebra SD and a zebra DMZ in the same guitar at the same time and it always bugged me how the black coils looked the same but the cream coils were mismatched)

That's just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to why DiMarzio's trademark is really not quite comparable to those famous cases that established color trademarks. It would probably fall pretty easily, but that's still a couple million bucks in lawyer fees

I wonder whether there is a civil rights organization somewhere that helps out with these things, analogous to those who defend open source software.

[Archer_of_Fish]

Re: Double Cream pickups

Buy from European makers if you want double cream

[Simon_F]

Re: Double Cream pickups

Buy from European makers if you want double cream

Bare Knuckle sell double cream humbuckers on their web site. I think they can do it because the DiMarzio trademark only applies in America and BK are selling in the UK. Not sure how that works out if you are in America and buying from the UK. And do BK export double cream pups to American dealers?