Humbuckers: To Direct Mount or Not to Direct Mount...

[jhale667]

Re: Humbuckers: To Direct Mount or Not to Direct Mount...

This statement comes from a personal experience of making an A/B comparison with two equal "better built instruments" you had to your disposal just to make this test?

How did you make the test? What p'ups did you use? What was your process? What rig was employed to make the test? Do you have any record of the test?

Inquiring minds would like to know...

I have two Ash-bodied Strat builds with identical vintage Charvel Maple necks and Floyds. One with a ring, one direct mounted. Up until very recently they both had Custom 8's in them. They both sound great , but the direct mounted one sounds more responsive, resonant and percussive IMO. I've since changed the direct-mounted one over to a 59/C (as mentioned in the piece), but those characteristics are still present. YMMV...

Oh, rig used? My Mesa-Boogie MK III.

[ItsaBass]

Re: Humbuckers: To Direct Mount or Not to Direct Mount...

True A/B comparisons are hard to do. Every time you make a change, the strings are either replaced or loosened and then re-tensioned. A guitar on which the pickup could be slid in and out without loosening the strings would be ideal. For instance, Leo Fender used what was basically a board with strings to do some of his electronics testing. Something like that – basically a lap guitar – could be used for the comparison.

I could imagine a difference in microphonics at high volume. But I could also imagine that the increased microphonics of the floating pickup are nothing that couldn't be eliminated with some properly-cut foam below the pickup. (Actually, my Godin G4000 came stock with a big piece of foam spanning all three pickups in the swimming pool rout.) While imagination is great, it's something that I think should be tested before doing a "tech" article on the subject. True or not, the article as written reeks of snake oil. I'm not ready to give up easy adjustment ability just because I read an article in which nothing is even close to being proven.

[AniML]

Re: Humbuckers: To Direct Mount or Not to Direct Mount...

Some players, myself included, have noticed a subtle but palpable difference between direct-mounted pickups and those mounted more traditionally in pick guards or mounting rings.

It was originally popularized by Edward Van Halen in his original Frankenstrat and various parts-mutt touring guitars, but it never really caught on in mass-produced instruments – maybe only a select few besides Eddie’s own EVH series...

False.

I assume the intent of the article was a discussion of direct mounted humbuckers, although it doesn't say that other than an anecdotal reference. Then it goes on to give Eddie credit for the innovation, while fully disregarding the fact that P90s have been using direct mounting since the 1950s, and perhaps it's forerunners before that.


Junk science + marketing Bullsh!t.

[ItsaBass]

Re: Humbuckers: To Direct Mount or Not to Direct Mount...

Some players, myself included, have noticed a subtle but palpable difference between direct-mounted pickups and those mounted more traditionally in pick guards or mounting rings.

It was originally popularized by Edward Van Halen in his original Frankenstrat and various parts-mutt touring guitars, but it never really caught on in mass-produced instruments – maybe only a select few besides Eddie’s own EVH series...

False.

I assume the intent of the article was a discussion of direct mounted humbuckers, although it doesn't say that other than an anecdotal reference. Then it goes on to give Eddie credit for the innovation, while fully disregarding the fact that P90s have been using direct mounting since the 1950s, and perhaps it's forerunners before that.


Junk science + marketing Bullsh!t.

Don't forget Fender Bass pickups!

Interesting topic, but pointless execution of the article.

[speed2dirt]

Re: Humbuckers: To Direct Mount or Not to Direct Mount...

Wow! Tough crowd!

[lazyfinger]

Re: Humbuckers: To Direct Mount or Not to Direct Mount...

It takes height adjustability out of the equation. Some pickups require the adjustment.

[jhale667]

Wow! Tough crowd!

No kidding.
Though I will agree I totally spaced on mentioning P-90s and bass pickups (not owning a P-90 equipped guitar nor being a bassist), the insinuation that somehow I'm "bullsh*t marketing" or selling something (snake oil, apparently) - by merely suggesting people try it is ridiculous. If it was "junk science" or I was the only person besides EVH (and the others who've agreed here) that noticed a difference I doubt parts manufacturers like Musikraft, KnE etc would offer a specific "tite" rout option (as one refers to it) on bodies for direct-mounting humbuckers either, but they do. The rout is also slightly more shallow than the standard 'bucker rout, so that height-adjustment is less of an issue.

then still use rings, after you mount the pickups you place the ring on after with its 4 little screws, then you use the center ring hole that is normally used to adjust the screw for height,now can be accessed to adjust the height of the pickup that is now direct mounted by sticking the screwdriver though the hole, you have to use small screw drivers like in a electronic kit or eye glass repair kit though.

Excellent suggestion! Thanks, I may try myself with the last body I bought that has the standard 'bucker rout I have stashed for a rainy day project. The standard rout does show a bit of a gap around the pickup w/o the mounting ring...

[AniML]

Re: Humbuckers: To Direct Mount or Not to Direct Mount...

No kidding.
Though I will agree I totally spaced on mentioning P-90s and bass pickups (not owning a P-90 equipped guitar nor being a bassist), the insinuation that somehow I'm "bullsh*t marketing" or selling something (snake oil, apparently) - by merely suggesting people try it is ridiculous. If it was "junk science" or I was the only person besides EVH (and the others who've agreed here) that noticed a difference I doubt parts manufacturers like Musikraft, KnE etc would offer a specific "tite" rout option (as one refers to it) on bodies for direct-mounting humbuckers either, but they do. The rout is also slightly more shallow than the standard 'bucker rout, so that height-adjustment is less of an issue.

I am aware of the options for direct mounting of humbuckers and I have tried them, in fact one attempt was in a KnE body.

Sorry, but an article published under the name of one of the biggest (if not the biggest) and most reputable pickup manufacturers that inaccurately credits EVH for popularizing direct mounted pickups, when in fact it was being done for decades before he was born is ripe for criticism. It's called name dropping.

With all due respect, it is marketing bullsh!t, because you are incorrectly associating Eddie's name with it. So the consumer looks at that and says "hmmm Eddie did it... Eddie Sounds great... Seymour is telling me about it.... I should go by a Seymour Duncan pickup and try this."

As for being junk science, poll the audience at the hair metal club. Ask them who could tell the difference between the direct mounted pickup and the one mounted on a pickup ring and which one sounds more like Ed.

[jhale667]

Re: Humbuckers: To Direct Mount or Not to Direct Mount...

Sorry, but an article published under the name of one of the biggest (if not the biggest) and most reputable pickup manufacturers that inaccurately credits EVH for popularizing direct mounted pickups, when in fact it was being done for decades before he was born is ripe for criticism. It's called name dropping

I am aware of the options for direct mounting of humbuckers and I have tried them.

With all due respect, it is marketing bullsh!t, because you are incorrectly associating Eddie's name with it. So the consumer looks at that and says "hmmm Eddie did it... Eddie Sounds great... Seymour is telling me about it.... I should go by a Seymour Duncan pickup and try this."

As for being junk science, poll the audience at the hair metal club. Ask them who could tell the difference between the direct mounted pickup and the one mounted on a pickup ring and which one sounds more like Ed.

Point taken, inaccuracies acknowledged -though it certainly wasn't an intentional omission or "name drop", again wasn't thinking P-90s. The stated goal of the article was never to "sound more like Ed". The idea is for the player to appreciate the enhanced response more so than the audience - to paraphrase the old adage "if you think you sound better, you'll play better". With all due respect, I'd also like to think most consumers with basic reading comprehension skills would probably catch the part at the end about "next time you're at a music store try a guitar with one" before running out and buying a pickup.

And do you really think the (non-playing) audience at "the hair metal club" (?) could tell the difference between a Les Paul and a Strat with a humbucker in the bridge slot without looking? Doubtful.

[DarkMatter]

Re: Humbuckers: To Direct Mount or Not to Direct Mount...

As for being junk science, poll the audience at the hair metal club. Ask them who could tell the difference between the direct mounted pickup and the one mounted on a pickup ring and which one sounds more like Ed.

Wait! There are hair metal clubs?

[LtKojak]

Re: Humbuckers: To Direct Mount or Not to Direct Mount...

I have two Ash-bodied Strat builds with identical vintage Charvel Maple necks and Floyds. One with a ring, one direct mounted. Up until very recently they both had Custom 8's in them. They both sound great , but the direct mounted one sounds more responsive, resonant and percussive IMO. I've since changed the direct-mounted one over to a 59/C (as mentioned in the piece), but those characteristics are still present. YMMV...

Oh, rig used? My Mesa-Boogie MK III.

Not to diminish your findings in any way, mind you, but I think that what you think are IDENTICAL guitars in reality they're not.

Plus, the only way to really stablish the allegedly difference is by double blind test, and hearing'em in a recorded way, with another player playing the instruments.

I've conducted double blind tests in the past with allegedly golden-eared tone snobs, and the findings were appalling. Where given a '60s Standard with real PAFs, all talked 'bout how "superior" the tone was in comparison with the other excellent instruments they all had. After the test, the '60s ranked 7th among 10 instruments. Not even one could recognize his OWN instrument, even when some have played the same instrument for over thirty years!

It's incredible how our mind can trick us into hearing something that it's not there or what we THINK it is, but it's not.

If it wasn't like this, Magicians and Illusionists couldn't make a living, so couldn't they?

Thank you for the time you took to answer the questions. Much appreciated!

[SAVAGE DISTORTION]

Re: Humbuckers: To Direct Mount or Not to Direct Mount...

This statement comes from a personal experience of making an A/B comparison with two equal "better built instruments" you had to your disposal just to make this test?

How did you make the test? What p'ups did you use? What was your process? What rig was employed to make the test? Do you have any record of the test?

Inquiring minds would like to know...

OMG dude? take a chill pill your are way too serious and scientific for your own good
I am sorry i did not realize i was dealing with the professor on gilligans island!

[jhale667]

Re: Humbuckers: To Direct Mount or Not to Direct Mount...

Not to diminish your findings in any way, mind you, but I think that what you think are IDENTICAL guitars in reality they're not.Plus, the only way to really stablish the allegedly difference is by double blind test, and hearing'em in a recorded way, with another player playing the instruments.

I've conducted double blind tests in the past with allegedly golden-eared tone snobs, and the findings were appalling. Where given a '60s Standard with real PAFs, all talked 'bout how "superior" the tone was in comparison with the other excellent instruments they all had. After the test, the '60s ranked 7th among 10 instruments. Not even one could recognize his OWN instrument, even when some have played the same instrument for over thirty years!

It's incredible how our mind can trick us into hearing something that it's not there or what we THINK it is, but it's not.

If it wasn't like this, Magicians and Illusionists couldn't make a living, so couldn't they?

Thank you for the time you took to answer the questions. Much appreciated!

You're welcome, but no - of course I don't think they're totally "identical" - though I did order both necks to the same specs at the same time in the 80s, there's no guarantee they're cut from the same maple tree, y'know? I mentioned it because you asked if anyone had done an A/B, and they're the closest thing to identical guitars as far a construction in my collection, and with the same kind of pickup in them there ARE tonal similarities... that's as close to a true A/B I did.

OMG dude? take a chill pill your are way too serious and scientific for your own good
I am sorry i did not realize i was dealing with the professor on gilligans island!

[Gypsyblue]

Re: Humbuckers: To Direct Mount or Not to Direct Mount...

Music is not science. Neither is tone. How music works and how tone is generated can be explained by science but plug all of that into a computer and ask it to create a song, let alone a symphony and you're not going to get a great piece of work. Probably it will be unlistenable except as a curiosity piece.

What's missing? YOU. ME. HUMANITY. We're the most important piece in the creative process.

If a skilled musician (not a beginner or untalented wannabe) says his guitar sounds more resonant with direct mounted pickups, then that person doesn't have to prove anything to me - I just want him or her to make good music with it.

Naysayers: your doubts are your own to reconcile - they have no effect on my own experience and I don't feel like proving a thing to you.

[LtKojak]

Re: Humbuckers: To Direct Mount or Not to Direct Mount...

that's as close to a true A/B I did.

I agree with you in this; it's not going to be any closer to the real thing that what you did, and that's why I much appreciated the time and effort you put to answer the question.

Your opinion on the outcome is duly noted.

Yours very truly,