HELP REQUIRED WITH HALF OUT OF PHASE WIRING

[Gstring]

I have been asked to help upgrade the pots and wiring of a Squier Custom Tele 11. For those not familiar this guitar has 2 Vol and 2 Tones and is wired like a Les Paul. Pots are Duncan Designed P90 stacks.

The new pots will be 500k CTS log with no load on 10 for the tones and Di Marzio 500k Push Pulls for the vols. The 2 push pulls will give Half OOP and series parallel switching. I understand that the 0.01 cap which gives the Half OOP when the pups are in parallel completely kills the tone when the pups are OOP in series so its necessary for this to be out of the circuit when series is engaged. I could not find the wiring schematic to do this but after a bit of scribbling came up with idea sketched below. Apologies for the rough drawing which I have obviously simplified by omitting non relevant wiring but I think it clearly shows the idea. When the neck vol PP is pulled up the 0.01 cap is bypassed. Also while most series switches tend to completely override the 3 way pick up selector switch, in this wiring the pups will only be in series when the neck pup is selected. In the other two positions you will get bridge only. I do not see this being a problem.

I am pretty sure this will work but I would welcome input from the more knowledgeable members of this forum.

Secondly I read somewhere that out of phase switching can cause an audible click or clunk when engaged but that this can be “smoothed” by wiring a 1000 resistor somewhere in the circuit. More information regarding this and where and how it should be wired (if at all) would be welcome.[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/B][/B]

[AlexR]

Re: HELP REQUIRED WITH HALF OUT OF PHASE WIRING

I had out of phase on one guitar and don't remember any clunk, but its a while since I last had that guitar so maybe the memory isn't so clear. The clunk I would have thought would have been switch quality related, not the wiring itself (I do have series split parallel and that is quiet).

Half OOP I've never heard of, sorry. I mean the pickup itself can only be 100% in phase or OOP, I'm assuming you are trying to get an effect where you can reduce the output of one of the pickups so the effect is less pronounced. Good luck with that one!!

[ArtieToo]

Re: HELP REQUIRED WITH HALF OUT OF PHASE WIRING

I see a possible problem with your diagram. I'll try to post back tomorrow.

[Gstring]

Re: HELP REQUIRED WITH HALF OUT OF PHASE WIRING

Thanks Artie. Would welcome your expertise. The series wiring I have previously used (slightly modified) on various Strats and it worked fine, but that is of course with master vol. Have I made some error with the vol pot wiring?

[creeping malaise]

Re: HELP REQUIRED WITH HALF OUT OF PHASE WIRING

H GString,

Can you say what sounds you are trying to achieve? Is there a published diagram you based this on and adapted? I can definitely help. But the 3 way toggle limits what you can do.

As drawn, the bridge pickup is shorted to ground when its Volume pot is down. That would silence the bridge and bridge plus middle positions.

For the "half out of phase" questions.... Its not really a technically valid term, but I get your meaning. I have used this type of wiring for may years. You shouldn't hear a clunk no, I never have.

The effect when done right minimizes the phase cancellation between the 2 pickups in parallel out of phase. To do this, you need the cap to effectively be in series between the connection to the switch or volume pot and the true ground of the pickup which becomes the positive after you flipped the phase. Your diagram has the cap in series between ground and true hot of the pickup. If memory serves this will only muddy the sound when that pickup is engaged. I know I tired every permutation possible years ago, and that was one I rejected as not usable :-)

[Gstring]

Re: HELP REQUIRED WITH HALF OUT OF PHASE WIRING

Thanks for your response creeping M . The guitar in question is not mine but I have a reputation for helping would be modders mainly because I do not mind a bit of soldering. I cannot say exactly what the owner is lookin for but she was impressed by the choice of sounds on a Strat I rewired a short while ago for a mutual acquaintance . This had 2 p p s giving OOPS on the bridge pup and series option on bridge /middle and bridge / neck. This wiring diagram is based on the wiring I used on that project which I had worked out by combining wiring info from this and the Di Marzio web pages.

I am a bit confused by your comments regarding the OOPs wiring which is stock Seymour Duncan . Its correct that the bridge positive goes to ground when the pp is pulled up but this is surely what is supposed to happen to get OOPs. I cannot agree that the pup will be silenced as the bridge negative is going to the volume pot. What makes you think it will?

I confess to having little knowledge regarding Half OOP but thought the wiring was to put the 0.01 cap between the pup positive and ground. From what you say I have it completely wrong and it should in fact go between the pup negative and the volume pup. Thanks for pointing this out. Presumably this means I simply have to put the cap wiring on the “other diagonal”?

[creeping malaise]

Re: HELP REQUIRED WITH HALF OUT OF PHASE WIRING

Hi - apologies, I was reading a connection where you had a loopover. There should not be any short to ground silence issue.

Yes, I would wire the cap in place of the diagonal jumper on the bridge P-P. Then run a jumper form upper left to lower left of the neck P-P. When the bridge P-P is up, this will provide some half OOP sound in parallel with the neck pickup. Alone it will act as a high pass filter so the bridge pickup will lose bass, When the series P-P is, it should darken the overall sound.

Another thought. you could swap everything so you switch phase and ad cap on the neck pickup, and use the bridge pickup for the series switching. the HOOP sounds will have more bridge pickup to it that way and less neck pickup. i will try to post a sound sample of this a little later.

[Gstring]

Re: HELP REQUIRED WITH HALF OUT OF PHASE WIRING

Again, thanks very much for the useful input. However in my original post I said that the main wiring idea was to by pass the cap when series was engaged....full OOP in series is a good sound based on my previous wiring experience and I clearly remember reading in more than one forum that HOOP in series is a bit too thin to be that useful. I see that you have bypassed this mod in your amended diagram. Did you have a specific reason for doing this?

In view of your experiments with HOOP I suspect you may well be correct that it might be better to transpose the bridge and neck pick ups in the wiring diagram. I choose the bridge as this worked well OOP in series with the middle and neck in the Strat. Also the DD P90 neck pup is a tad "sweeter" than the bridge and I thought it probably best left alone.

Artie posted that there was a "possible" problem with the original wiring diagram.

[creeping malaise]

Re: HELP REQUIRED WITH HALF OUT OF PHASE WIRING

Practically speaking I'm not sure there is a way to bypass that cap in series with only 2 push pulls. I'll think about that later today. It could be switched in or out with a third P-P.
I don't see any other issue but I hadn't fully charted each switching variation either. It seems my amp has developed a fault so couldn't get any sounds recorded.

[ArtieToo]

Re: HELP REQUIRED WITH HALF OUT OF PHASE WIRING

Creeping: If you look at your diagram, the jumper you added just routes the upper-left terminal of the bridge vol to ground, regardless of the position of the neck vol push-pull. (Highlighted in green. Fig 1) You might just as well run that terminal direct to ground and eliminate the wiring on the left side of the neck push-pull. But then again, that doesn't accomplish what the OP originally wanted.

Gstring: It took me awhile to study your diagram because its drawn on the "back-of-a-napkin", so to speak.
But basically, it's drawn correctly for what you want to accomplish. There is one short-cut though. You also have the upper-left terminal of the neck push-pull going over to the "other" switches ground. Same for the cap. You could just go directly to the lower-right ground terminal of the same push-pull. (Fig 2)

Just be sure you understand that while in the "series" mode, you'll effectively have Fig 3. That's an unusual way to do it, but I like unusual.

Artie

[creeping malaise]

Re: HELP REQUIRED WITH HALF OUT OF PHASE WIRING

You are correct Artie. My point was to demonstrate an alternate way of using the cap as a high pass filter that IMO provides a good usable parallel half out of phase sound. I don't care for the sound either parallel or series when the cap runs to ground. It acts as a high pass filter which to me muddies up the sound minimizing the honk and edge which was the whole appeal of out of phase to begin with. YMMV :-)

[ArtieToo]

Re: HELP REQUIRED WITH HALF OUT OF PHASE WIRING

I don't care for the sound either parallel or series when the cap runs to ground. It acts as a high pass filter which to me muddies up the sound minimizing the honk and edge which was the whole appeal of out of phase to begin with.

I'm guessing that you mean "high pass filter to ground", like a conventional tone control. And that, of course, is really a low-pass filter with regard to the signal path, because the cap is in parallel with the pickup. (Fig 1) Thus, a tone control on "zero", would muddy the sound.

But this cap is connected in series with the pickup. Therefore, it's a true high-pass filter. (The bass will be blocked.) Look at Fig 2. The cap and pup are in series. Neither end of the cap is connected to ground. Now look at Fig 3. I've simply reversed the order of the cap and pup. Now one end of the cap is connected to ground, but it's electrically identical to Fig 2. Its still a high-pass filter.

When the cap is connected to ground in a more complex drawing, like the OP's, it can easily be mistaken for a "tone-control-on-zero" configuration.
(Personally, I think I'd put a 6.2k resistor in series with that cap to get a little more controlled HOOP sound. But thats me.)

Artie

Btw, this why you don't want the cap in the circuit in the "series" mode, because it will remove all the bass, from both pups.

[creeping malaise]

Re: HELP REQUIRED WITH HALF OUT OF PHASE WIRING

I think you are missing that all my comments are in reference to two pickups which are out of phase. So where in a one pickup scenario "the bass is blocked" by a series cap is usually not a desirable sound, in a 2 pickup parallel wiring, "the bass is blocked" by a series cap with one pickup actually results in MORE bass in the signal, because it prevents those same bass frequencies from the 2nd pickup from being phase canceled. In that scenario diagrams 2 and 3 do not produce the same sound for me. Cheers.

[Gstring]

Re: HELP REQUIRED WITH HALF OUT OF PHASE WIRING

Many thanks Artie for your much appreciated input and expertise. Its good to learn that my proposed wiring was actually correct. Although it seems fairly obvious now I spent a fair bit of head scatching before I came up with the cap bypass idea to eliminate the excessive bass cut when OOP in series. Your alternative way of wiring this is noted with much interest. I am not sure why creeping M thought that the bypass would not work and a third push pull was required.

Interestingly I note that in your amended diagram you are still showing the cap between the pup positive and the ground as in my original diagram. Is this correct or should it be between the pup negative and the volume pot? Is it that both are correct but give different sounds?

[ArtieToo]

Re: HELP REQUIRED WITH HALF OUT OF PHASE WIRING

I think you are missing that all my comments are in reference to two pickups which are out of phase. So where in a one pickup scenario "the bass is blocked" by a series cap is usually not a desirable sound, in a 2 pickup parallel wiring, "the bass is blocked" by a series cap with one pickup actually results in MORE bass in the signal, because it prevents those same bass frequencies from the 2nd pickup from being phase canceled. In that scenario diagrams 2 and 3 do not produce the same sound for me. Cheers.

And with this, I agree completely. Perhaps I misread or misinterpreted something you said earlier.

Interestingly I note that in your amended diagram you are still showing the cap between the pup positive and the ground as in my original diagram. Is this correct or should it be between the pup negative and the volume pot? Is it that both are correct but give different sounds?

Both are correct and sound the same. It doesn't matter the order on components in series.