PG vs. PG+

[DreX]

Every once in a while someone asks about the difference between Pearly Gates and Pearly Gates Plus. I happen to have both on hand at the moment, so I measured them to see what the difference was between them in terms of frequency / amplitude response.

According to frequency analysis, the PG+ peaks out higher than the regular PG, and delivers a little more harmonic content past 5 to 6 kHz, but is otherwise pretty much the same.

 

[Masta' C]

Re: PG vs. PG+

Can we see a close-up of the 80 to 6.1K range and also of the 80 to 2.1K range?

Edit: What methods are you using to get these measurements?

 

[DreX]

Re: PG vs. PG+

Can we see a close-up of the 80 to 6.1K range and also of the 80 to 2.1K range?

Here's 80 to 6.1K, as you can see there's no hidden detail to be had, the two pickups test the same in this range.

Edit: What methods are you using to get these measurements?

Here's a pic of the setup

 

[DreX]

Re: PG vs. PG+

I have to say, I'm impressed with Seymour Duncans quality contol, these pickups are very alike despite coming from entirely different places, I ordered the PGs, the PG+ came in a guitar I bought.

 

[beaubrummels]

Re: PG vs. PG+

What's the amount of data smoothing in those graphs?

 

[Evan Skopp]

Re: PG vs. PG+

I have to say, I'm impressed with Seymour Duncans quality contol, these pickups are very alike despite coming from entirely different places, I ordered the PGs, the PG+ came in a guitar I bought.

Thanks for noticing.

With regard to OEM pickups vs. retail, they're made by the same builders, on the same production floor, using the same materials, the same tools and fixtures, following the same assembly procedures, and with the same QC standards. The only real difference is in the packaging spec. For example, a Pearly Gates purchased retail and a Pearly Gates purchased as an OEM component should have the same standards and tolerances as if they were both OEM or both retail.

 

[DreX]

Re: PG vs. PG+

The plot points are 200 or 400 kHz apart, I forget what it was set at, and then just connected with straight lines.

 

[Edgecrusher]

Re: PG vs. PG+

Thanks for noticing.

With regard to OEM pickups vs. retail, they're made by the same builders, on the same production floor, using the same materials, the same tools and fixtures, following the same assembly procedures, and with the same QC standards. The only real difference is in the packaging spec. For example, a Pearly Gates purchased retail and a Pearly Gates purchased as an OEM component should have the same standards and tolerances as if they were both OEM or both retail.

But shouldnt the PG+ be wound a bit hotter? Drex has them listed as the PG actually having more resistance.

 

[DreX]

Re: PG vs. PG+

I heard the PG+ was brighter than the PG, to make it more suitable for strats, I suppose.

 

[Edgecrusher]

Re: PG vs. PG+

I heard the PG+ was brighter than the PG, to make it more suitable for strats, I suppose.

Should be as it has an A5 mag instead of the A2 but there was also a request for it to be a bit louder too

 

[darthphineas]

Re: PG vs. PG+

I have to say, I'm impressed with Seymour Duncans quality contol, these pickups are very alike despite coming from entirely different places, I ordered the PGs, the PG+ came in a guitar I bought.

how would you have imagined they come from entirely different places? was that rhetorical places or physical places? does Seymour have a sooper sekreet factory that only a few people know about?

also, what other brands have you measured against for QC. I believe you mentioned BKP in another thread. how do they measure up against other brands you've tried?

 

[DreX]

Re: PG vs. PG+

Should be as it has an A5 mag instead of the A2 but there was also a request for it to be a bit louder too

It actually is slightly louder IIRC, this particular test doesn't show that, though. Since I wanted to compare the frequency response, I adjusted the overall levels so that the response lines would be easier to compare to one another. I could have made the high frequencies overlap and then you'd see less bass in the PG+ instead of more treble, but that's two sides of the same coin. I'll do it again without making that adjustment so that you can see the true amplitude. I should have probably did that in the first place, but IMO the small difference in output is trivial compared to the overall EQ curve.

 

[Evan Skopp]

Re: PG vs. PG+

But shouldnt the PG+ be wound a bit hotter? Drex has them listed as the PG actually having more resistance.

Yes, you're right. And that's confusing. The PG+ has a hundred or so more turns. It's not enough to really affect the d.c. resistance and as you can see, it's within spec for the PG to have an ever-so-slightly higher dcr than the PG+. It's those extra hundred turns together with the A5 magnet that give the PG+ the 3dB boost over the PG as Fender's Mike Lewis requested from us way back when.

 

[Edgecrusher]

Re: PG vs. PG+

Yes, you're right. And that's confusing. The PG+ has a hundred or so more turns. It's not enough to really affect the d.c. resistance and as you can see, it's within spec for the PG to have an ever-so-slightly higher dcr than the PG+. It's those extra hundred turns together with the A5 magnet that give the PG+ the 3dB boost over the PG as Fender's Mike Lewis requested from us way back when.

Nice good info.. Thanks =)

 

[beaubrummels]

Re: PG vs. PG+

It actually is slightly louder IIRC, this particular test doesn't show that, though. Since I wanted to compare the frequency response, I adjusted the overall levels so that the response lines would be easier to compare to one another. I could have made the high frequencies overlap and then you'd see less bass in the PG+ instead of more treble, but that's two sides of the same coin. I'll do it again without making that adjustment so that you can see the true amplitude. I should have probably did that in the first place, but IMO the small difference in output is trivial compared to the overall EQ curve.

Wait a minute, you got all over another guy's case in another thread about his subjective view vs your objective test, but now we're finding out you messed with the test results to suit what you think is important?

 

[DreX]

Re: PG vs. PG+

how would you have imagined they come from entirely different places? was that rhetorical places or physical places? does Seymour have a sooper sekreet factory that only a few people know about?

also, what other brands have you measured against for QC. I believe you mentioned BKP in another thread. how do they measure up against other brands you've tried?

I just mean one I bought and the other was an OEM, nothing more. I didn't know their production process was the same until Evan mentioned it above.

I'm not sure what the difference was supposed to be between a PG and PG+, but if it was to make a PG that was a smidge brighter, then it hits the bull's eye. Given the imperfections in coil wire and the randomness of winding a coil, I'm surprised in general to see the pickups have identical balance up to the 6 kHz range. Even if this sort of precision is industry standard, I'm still surprised all the same.

 

[DreX]

Re: PG vs. PG+

Wait a minute, you got all over another guy's case in another thread about his subjective view vs your objective test, but now we're finding out you messed with the test results to suit what you think is important?

The thing which is measured for in this test, frequency response, is objective. The other measure, overall amplitude is simply not represented at all, and I never said it was. If people want to see that, I can measure for that, but like I said I find that to be more distracting since it makes the EQ curves harder to compare to one another.

 

[beaubrummels]

Re: PG vs. PG+

The thing which is measured for in this test, frequency response, is objective. The other measure, overall amplitude is simply not represented at all, and I never said it was. If people want to see that, I can measure for that, but like I said I find that to be more distracting since it makes the EQ curves harder to compare to one another.

Not true, because if you line up the bass, you make it look like one pickup has a boost in treble, if you line up the treble, you make it look like the other has weak bass output. You can't skew results like that and draw a comparison.

 

[Evan Skopp]

Re: PG vs. PG+

I'm not sure what the difference was supposed to be between a PG and PG+

Here's a bit of background on this. I had been pushing very hard to do OEM business with Fender. At the time, the only OEM business we did with them was the Jerry Donahue Custom Shop Tele, which was very small. I pitched them on a Strat with an SD humbucker in the bridge. The first VP of Marketing I dealt with was Dan Smith and he very much wanted to keep all pickup manufacture within the Fender organization. Dan eventually moved from Marketing in Scottsdale to R&D in Corona; and that's when Mike Lewis took over Marketing. Mike was always a fan of the Pearly Gates. When he started prototyping what would eventually become the Lonestar, he told me that he loved the sound of the Pearly Gates, but because the Texas Specials were a bit on the hot side, their output matched evenly with the Pearly Gates; and he wanted a bridge pickup that would retain the tonality of the Pearly Gates but give around 3dB more output so when you switched into the bridge-only position, there would be a noticeable output increase. I relayed that to Kevin Beller and he changed the magnet and added a few more turns, and that's how it came to be, and that's what the difference was supposed to be.

 

[PFDarkside]

Re: PG vs. PG+

I love when Evan tells us stories from behind the curtain. It's like hearing grandpa tell stories about the war, even if you've heard it before (like this one) it never gets old!