Staggered poles and a modern radius.

[DreX]

Re: Staggered poles and a modern radius.

You're not wrong, you're just missing the fact that as you move up the neck, the vibration pattern of the string is also smaller because you've shortened the string length. So at the 12th fret when the neck pickup magnet is "in the middle of the V", the string is half as long and the vibration pattern is a lot smaller. It takes less power to move the 25.5" string around than it does to move around a string that's been fretted at the 15th fret for example, compounded by the larger vibration pattern.

Like I said its not that you're wrong about the way you phrased it, you just missed an additional variable. (or I failed to explain it right the first time)

So, as the vibrating length of string becomes wider, the string requires less effort to be pull downwards, but at the same time, the the string also moves further away form the pickups, like if you pinch the 22nd fret, the string is all of the sudden very close to the magnet, like 3mm to 4mm closer by my estimation. Would you say the fact that an open string is a lot further away from the pickup has a greater overall impact on the degree of warble, than the fact that the open string is more easily pulled down by magnets?

[DreX]

Re: Staggered poles and a modern radius.

Flatpole is the answer, ladies and gentlemen, flatpole...

Seriously, I learned this the hard way a while back when I made a radiused set to match the radius of a customer's Strat, which was the same as my testbed Strat. On testing, the D and G strings were in your face, A and B weak, and the E's almost completely dropped off the radar. Then I read somewhere Lollar said flatpole, counterintuitive as it sounds, gives the best string-to-string balance, regardless of the radius, unless it's 3" or something. Tried it, agreed, and have been selling customers on flatpole ever since.

Makes sense. People usually leave their humbucker screw pieces flush and you rarely hear anyone complain about string balance. It's hard to tell if stagger still exists because anyone finds it useful, or if guitar buyers just want the vintage correct aesthetic. Pole stagger is but one of many design aspects of an off-the-shelf Strat that haven't changed significantly since the 50's, regardless of their technical merit.

[DreX]

Re: Staggered poles and a modern radius.

As if you'd know. You should listen more to DreX, instead of trying so hard to correct him.

I'd like to point out that had I not asked the question or put forth the idea, Frank wouldn't have replied and shared these bits of knowledge with us.

[Lucid_Lunatic]

Re: Staggered poles and a modern radius.

This thread delivers.

[frankfalbo]

Re: Staggered poles and a modern radius.

Would you say the fact that an open string is a lot further away from the pickup has a greater overall impact on the degree of warble, than the fact that the open string is more easily pulled down by magnets?

If I understand you correctly, the easiest answer I can give you is that the more common problem is the pitch warbling, and double-tones. Much less of a problem is someone with action low enough, and enough discernment to correlate the magnetic pull to the minuscule pull-down which could induce more fret noise. Again, this is where I say I don't necessarily believe the magnetic pull is the cause for Ayrton, given the circumstances presented in the original post. But at the same time I don't want to dismiss it.

Another fun thing to ponder is that when you pluck a string it's vibrating in a back and forth pattern, but eventually settles into a round pattern like a jump rope. You can pluck a string and have it be clean, then hear the "zing" sound a half second later. Or if you pluck upward, from under the string like Santana does sometimes, the first vibration smacks against the fret tops and is sort of compressed, more so than when someone like Buddy Guy comes down hard on the string from the top. Its not only why we all sound different from one another, it's also a reason why some players are playing off of these weird deficiencies inherent in the guitar, or the pickups, whatever and why if you changed these things, if you "fixed" them so to speak, the result would sound more wrong to us. It would be worse. In all forms of art, sometimes better is worse.

[beaubrummels]

Re: Staggered poles and a modern radius.

In all forms of art, sometimes better is worse.

So by way of subjective non-scientific extrapolation, that means...

Worse is better.
Less is more.
Chinese is Gibson.

and I have many Gibson friends.

[GoldenVulture]

Re: Staggered poles and a modern radius.

I'm staggered at the polarizing posts here.

[GoldenVulture]

Re: Staggered poles and a modern radius.

So by way of subjective non-scientific extrapolation, that means...

Worse is better.
Less is more.
Chinese is Gibson.

and I have many Gibson friends.

Do they speak Gibson or English ?

[beaubrummels]

Re: Staggered poles and a modern radius.

Do they speak Gibson or English ?

Gibberish

[Ayrton]

Re: Staggered poles and a modern radius.

the ultimate test would be to unscrew the pickups until the drop out and see if it goes away.

...and that is exactly what happened.

Frank thanks for chiming in on this. I really did not want to even start this thread, but that is another story.

First, I did not post this without doing some digging first. I had read about "Stratitis" before of course, but never really had an issue with it. I just adjusted the pickups until it sounded right, and have never had any issues with fret buzz.

I currently own close to twenty strats, and the great majority has single coils with staggered poles. However, I only have two with SSL-1s, and both have issues with the D&G strings buzzing. One of the guitars had Fender pickups in it, and no fret buzzing. I drop SSL-1s in there and I have to drop them almost flush with the guard to stop the buzzing. The second guitar was even worse, and dropping the pups to just below the guard stops the buzzing.

I started reading around, and came across several threads on various strat forums about pushing down the D&G poles. I thought that sounded very risky with vintage style pups, so I sent Evan a PM about how the SSLs were made and he asked me to start a thread about it.

If Duncan wants to swap me a couple of sets of SSL-2s to try, I am happy to do so.

[DreX]

Re: Staggered poles and a modern radius.

Much less of a problem is someone with action low enough, and enough discernment to correlate the magnetic pull to the minuscule pull-down which could induce more fret noise

If the action was that low, I'd think you'd also have a hard time just plucking the strings without getting buzz. In any event, next time I'm doing saddle adjustments I'll see if I can lower the string to where I can induce buzz just by raising and lowering the pickup, perhaps with a cap on the 12 fret. Actually, I have some neodymiums on hand, I'll just slide it right under the strings.

Another fun thing to ponder is that when you pluck a string it's vibrating in a back and forth pattern, but eventually settles into a round pattern like a jump rope. You can pluck a string and have it be clean, then hear the "zing" sound a half second later.

Interesting, I never thought too hard about why that happens, but... now I know.

Or if you pluck upward, from under the string like Santana does sometimes, the first vibration smacks against the fret tops and is sort of compressed, more so than when someone like Buddy Guy comes down hard on the string from the top. Its not only why we all sound different from one another, it's also a reason why some players are playing off of these weird deficiencies inherent in the guitar, or the pickups, whatever and why if you changed these things, if you "fixed" them so to speak, the result would sound more wrong to us. It would be worse. In all forms of art, sometimes better is worse.

Definitely, just like how singers will abuse their vocal cords. I'm grateful to all the rock vocalists who destroyed their voices early in the game for the sake of art and our enjoyment.

[Dr. Vegetable]

Re: Staggered poles and a modern radius.

Do not push down on your poles, you'll go blind!