Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

[dpaterson]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

Before I go any further I decided to "go the extra mile" for you dudes!!! LOL!!!

I took the main part of the Vivian Campbell tutor DVD, converted it, and uploaded to YouTube (as below). It's "Unlisted" which means that theoretically it's only accessible from here (crass attempt to not step over any copyright lines!!! LOL!!!).

But do note: the DVD itself has many additional features so if you want these features you need to download the file above, extract, and burn to DVD.

Ladies and Gentlemen, Girls and Boys, I present Mr. Vivian Campbell (and the crowd goes wild!!! LOL!!!):

[dpaterson]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

Now for the good stuff!!! LOL!!!

I am IN AWE!!! LOL!!! This Invader is BOSS!!! LOL!!! Seriously: I got my very own "midrange honk" NO problem and right out of the gate AND on my beloved Marshall CODE amps. to boot!!! MAN OH MAN it's AMAZING!!!

Now let me calm down and give you the low down!!! LOL!!!

There is a HUGE difference between the Invader and the DM SD. As expected: it's got a lot less bottom end, loads of mids., and oddly enough it seems to have a lot less treble than the DM SD as well. Put it this way: in this guitar it's taken out any "shrillness" whatsoever and I'm left with a CONTROLLABLE and EXTREMELY clean and articulate bottom end. Up until now with this particular guitar: with the stock Jackson pickup as well as with the DM SD I've been running everything with just about NO bass whatsoever because the bass was overdone and muddy no matter WHAT I did. And, of course, it has the most awesome "midrange honk".

So there ya go (after all this). Obviously some tone tweaking is in order now. But I'm 100% sure I'll finally get my "live, woody, gnarly, midrangy" tone WITH my amps.

I am SOOO happy that I reckon a video is in order!!! LOL!!!

Anyways. Time to pay this guitar some attention now i.e. new strings, intonate again, put back the tone pot. and switch (would not do this if it didn't look so "spare" i.e. never use tone or the neck pickup) and, above all, a real nice clean (poor thing has been neglected since I started with all of this).



Only ONE thing though (and the more I've worked with this guitar the more I like Jackson!!!): it sure appears to me that ALL Jackson stock pickups are F-spaced even if they don't say so. Even the stock Jackson pickup that I took out of this guitar is wider than the DM SD F-spaced pickup that I've just taken out i.e. all strings fall "dead on" a pole piece with the stock Jackson pickup which was not the case with the DM SD and is not the case with the Invader. In other words: an F-spaced Invader would be PERFECT here. How much of a difference this would make to anything other than aesthetics I know not (and don't think I'm gonna bother).

Oh and I had no problem setting the Invader to 1.95mm i.e. the pole pieces still stick out of the pickup ring no problem on the treble side (action is set lower on the treble side on this guitar). And for some reason or the other: this pickup in this guitar is so articulate sounding I reckon I could probably actually raise it to Jackson's 1.6mm standard without any muddiness problem. Go figure!!!

[dpaterson]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

Alright. I dunno if I should be posting here or starting a new thread for this (please feel free to advise). For now: I'll stick here.

All is not what it seemed I'm afraid. The guitar sounded great when I first put the Invader in (with just a 500kΩ volume pot). So I then decided I would wire up the whole thing properly (tone pot., Jackson neck pickup, switch, etc.). Even sprang for a Switchcraft 1/4" jack!!! Long story short: the moment I plugged it in it sounded "muffled" for want of a better word i.e. whatever tops there had been had all but disappeared (talk about JUST having mids.!!! LOL!!!). I have also since discovered that the Jackson neck pickup (two wire) is out of phase with the Invader. So in short: I'm now "gatvol" (that's South African slang for "I've had enough of this fu*king sh*t"!!! LOL!!!).

So. I've now stripped the guitar AGAIN (and this IS THE LAST TIME). The plan really is to not worry about what's functional and what's not anymore (not the way I'd usually do things and sure is going to take some getting used to on my part). So to this end: I've swapped the pickup rings around. I've put the thicker/higher one at the neck (with the Jackson neck pickup and this just to fill the space really) and the thinner/lower one in the bridge (with the Invader and this done so that the Invader can be adjusted WITHOUT it going below the pickup ring i.e. to ensure that it sticks out) (after adjusting yesterday it looked ridiculous i.e. only a small portion of the top of the pole pieces was sticking out above the pickup ring). I'm going to put in a 1MΩ volume pot with no tone pot. and not going to wire the switch (but will leave a tone pot. and the switch to cover the holes is all). And of course: only going to connect the Invader and have done with it. The white Charvel only has one darn pickup (Invader) anyway so scr*w it. I'm so close to the tone and I'm done with mucking about with this it's now down to what I can accomplish tone wise as opposed to aesthetics. Thoughts anyone??? Anybody think of anything I've missed before I put this darn thing together again???

[Gtrjunior]

Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

If it sounded great before you wired it all completely then it’s probably not the 500k volume pot.
First thing is to wire it up without the tone control, like you said. But use the current 500K pot.

As far as the pickup rings, the important aspect is the distance of the pickups to the string. Not how much of the pickup sticks out above the ring.
In the above pic the invader looks waaaay too high. The strings aren’t hitting the pole caps? Or at least really close to hitting?

The OOP issue with the Jackson pickup I believe can be fixed by reversing the hot and ground of the pickup. Somebody with more knowledge than me can please correct me if that is wrong but I think I remember reading that somewhere.

[dpaterson]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

Hello.

Thanks for that.

I've pulled this thing apart so many times are wired and rewired it's a jiffy to do it again if I'm not happy!!! LOL!!! I'm gonna put a 1MΩ volume pot in just to see (take me five minutes to put a 500KΩ back in if needs be). Aside from the issue I had with the pickups and whatever else: I was actually quite taken aback by sheer amount of tops I'd lost with the Invader. Got my mids. but at quite a big expense of tops. So I'm figuring the 1MΩ pot. may be the sweet spot. I'm also putting 9's back on this guitar i.e. I remember how much treble boost I got with 10's even before I started mucking about with all of this (this is evidently a very "bright" guitar). Maybe the combination of the two will be "it". Suppose I'll see in the next hour!!! LOL!!!

After I'd set the top of the Invader pole pieces to 1.95mm under the strings (fretting last fret) the pole pieces were only JUST above the pickup ring and it looked ridiculous (and no idea if it makes any difference to tone or not i.e. some say yes while others say no so I'm gonna err on the side of caution). They look very high in the pic. because I'd not strung the guitar yet and set the pickup height. Very glad I decided to do this though i.e. after I removed the Invader I noticed that I had not even 1mm of thread left on the adjustment screw on the treble side. Had I decided to take the Invader down further the pickup would have come loose from the pickup height adjustment screw and that would have sent me over the edge!!! LOL!!! So yeh: the way it's setup now is like "normal" and nothing is at its limits.

I thought about just reversing the wiring on the Jackson pickup but nah. At the end of the day (as we all know) I was after a specific tone and I got it (and think I'm there now). I have never ever played with both pickups active nor have I ever played with the neck pickup so I figure why complicate matters and possibly sully the tone of the Invader. It may be worth mentioning though that the out of phase tone wasn't half bad actually!!! It had quite a bit of a "quack" to it and some more treble. But unfortunately the power dropped by about half. But yeh. Wasn't a bad tone at all to be honest (and no humming or anything like that either).

I will tell ya this much though: I have new found respect for whichever Chinese or Korean or Japanese person (Chinese in this case I'm almost sure) solders up these three way switches!!! LOL!!! Was really easy de-soldering the darn thing but MAN was it a mission again to put all the wires back correctly!!! LOL!!! Nope. Never again. At least not with a used switch (much easier if you soldering a new "virgin" switch I would imagine).

Yeh look. This is not how I normally would do things nor the way I want them. But at the end of the day (trying to be mature here): it's the tone I get out of this guitar with the Invader that counts. If by some or the other miracle I wanna play other stuff then I've still got my white Jackson and the Blaze for that stuff. The Invader is definitely THE BOSS (for my tone I want) so may as well stop here and get on with playing i.e. I really don't think it's worth stripping the whole thing again to put in a neck Invader (which reminds me: I'd better cancel the flipping order for the neck Invader if I am able to).

[Gtrjunior]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

Ha! Yeah, those switches are tough...

[metalchurch79]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

Dale,
The added height of the Invader poles and you running out of thread on your height screws when trying to lower it is exactly why I suggested that you shim the neck because not only that, sometimes the pickup will bottom out in the pickup route itself leaving you no other choice, especially since the Invader poles cannot be lowered.
Running out of height screw is even further exaggerated when you have long leg baseplates, so atleast yours are short leg...
You can try to find longer height screws if in fact the pickup doesn't bottom out.. but another thing will be the height screws hitting the bottom of the pickup route

^^ all those issues are more prevalent with recessed trems and non-pickguard guitars because everything is so tight to the body.

The mounting rings are purely cosmetic so by you swapping them was only feeding into your OCD. Imagine direct mounted pickup with no rings and how much the bobbins would protrude...

[dpaterson]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

Hello.

Dale,
The added height of the Invader poles and you running out of thread on your height screws when trying to lower it is exactly why I suggested that you shim the neck because not only that, sometimes the pickup will bottom out in the pickup route itself leaving you no other choice, especially since the Invader poles cannot be lowered.
Running out of height screw is even further exaggerated when you have long leg baseplates, so atleast yours are short leg...
You can try to find longer height screws if in fact the pickup doesn't bottom out.. but another thing will be the height screws hitting the bottom of the pickup route

^^ all those issues are more prevalent with recessed trems and non-pickguard guitars because everything is so tight to the body.

The mounting rings are purely cosmetic so by you swapping them was only feeding into your OCD. Imagine direct mounted pickup with no rings and how much the bobbins would protrude...

Shimming the neck would make things worse my good friend i.e. it would mean lowering the action afterward at the bridge and this in turn would necessitate moving the Invader further down and in its original config. it basically would have run out of adjustment threads and fallen off inside the flipping cavity (and as I said: this would have pushed me over the edge for sure!!! LOL!!!).

Changing the pickup mounting rings wasn't pure cosmetic either. What it in fact has accomplished is lowering the Invader pre-adjustment. In other words: I don't have to adjust too much to go lower (so will not run out of adjustment screw thread) and can adjust higher no problem.

And yip. You're right. I can see the merits of top mounted tremelo systems (like your guitars and my Blaze).

Anyways. THE GOOD news is that it's all together again and looks like the nice guitar that it once was (but only better because now it has a big fat black monstrous INVADER!!! LOL!!!). I've strung it up and tuned it up and set the tremelo level and so far so good I must say. Actually sounds awesome. Better in fact with the 1MΩ pot. now i.e. it's still got its "mid. honk" but with some tops back (and those I can easy dial back if needs be). Just need to set the string height (although oddly enough it feels right although with me that's never good enough i.e. gotta set the height with gauges you know!!! LOL!!!), then Invader height, and check the intonation (which is bound to be out because I took this tremelo system totally apart some weeks ago to look at something).

Pity about the tone pot. and switch now. But was thinking: mebbe I should connecte up some of those snake lights around the guitar and use the switch to control them on and off and the tone pot to speed up or slow down!!! LOL!!!

[metalchurch79]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

If you shim the neck at the rear, it will make you need to raise your bridge/action accordingly and therefore give you more room to get your pole to string clearance in order.

Ok, yea I see what you mean though about the thinner ring and that was a good idea.

[dpaterson]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

I owe you an apology my good man.

Sorry. I've never shimmed a neck before (only ever shimmed a nut). So when I saw your post I made the mental connection between "shim" and "nut". Sorry. Actually: very interesting and a good idea and certainly something I will not forget for future.

P.S.

Like THIS I assume you mean:

https://www.stewmac.com/Materials_an...jh9QlnXH2Xt9M4

[metalchurch79]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

No problem Dale and you didn't owe me an apology by any means, it is a lot of information coming all at once in an area that's already a lot to take in.

Id like to publicly say that Im proud of the fact that you're taking everyone's ideas and suggestions and applying them first hand and trying to learn how to do this yourself as opposed to throwing your hands up and pawning the work off to a shop...

Hands on experience is priceless that's for sure... By no means am I a pro shop, but that being said I post my ideas and suggestions going from hands on experiences stemming back for years... I also post with the unwritten clause that there are other ways to do the same thing, however I would not steer you wrong intentionally.

All's good bro! Besides, last I checked this is a guitar forum.

Edit:
Heres a link to the shims...

https://www.stewmac.com/Materials_and_Supplies/Bodies_and_Necks_and_Wood/Electric_Guitar_Bodies_and_Necks_and_Wood/Electric_Guitar_Necks/StewMac_Neck_Shims_for_Guitar.html?utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=BS%253A%2520Catchall&utm_term=4578022820766003&utm_content=Ad%2520group%2520%25231

[dpaterson]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

Done!!!

I present to you the JackVader™ by Dale!!! LOL!!!

This thing absolutely SCREAMS i.e. pinch and split harmonics almost jump out by themselves and not to mention a clean bottom end "growl", of course the "gnarly" mids., and with JUST the right amount of top end!!!

After seeing it complete now: it seems a shame to not put in a neck Invader and connect the switch and tone pot.??? Maybe even spring for a genuine ORIGINAL FR and have done with it???

I love it!!! I've always had a very, very, soft spot for this particular guitar. So I am very glad and very thankful that it's back on track (and then some). Thanks everyone!!!

And you wanna hear the best news of all??? Once I'd completed the setup (which included everything from neck relief to intonation to pickup height and whatever else): I plugged in, sat down, and actually played (jammed) for almost two hours solid without stopping to tweak tone even once!!! Now there's a flipping milestone for me if there ever was one!!!

[Gtrjunior]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

What model Jackson is that...pretty sharp!!

[LLL]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

Before I go any further I decided to "go the extra mile" for you dudes!!! LOL!!!

I took the main part of the Vivian Campbell tutor DVD, converted it, and uploaded to YouTube (as below). It's "Unlisted" which means that theoretically it's only accessible from here (crass attempt to not step over any copyright lines!!! LOL!!!).

But do note: the DVD itself has many additional features so if you want these features you need to download the file above, extract, and burn to DVD.

Ladies and Gentlemen, Girls and Boys, I present Mr. Vivian Campbell (and the crowd goes wild!!! LOL!!!):

I'd love to view this vid, but it's been removed or blocked.

[metalchurch79]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

I didn't get to see it either so I figured Id try to download it later on.