Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

[dpaterson]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

I think I've caught up now on the relevant posts (relevant to my quest anyway).

One last question (for now anyway):

SD Invaders!!! Is the Invader bridge pickup F-spaced??? And if NOT: WHY not??? If NOT: then what's the difference between the Invader neck and Invader bridge pickups???

I'm asking because I've been thinking about this Blaze issue. I mean to say: I think I'm fooling myself thinking it'll appreciate in value??? Or am I??? Dunno. But maybe it'd be better for me to actually play the (beautiful) thing and replace the pickups with Invaders and have done with it??? I can then put the Full Shred and JB (SH-4) from the Blaze into my white Jackson, order a DM SD neck for my black Jackson, and done and dusted. And if all of this don't work: gonna be having a MASSIVE garage sale!!! LOL!!!

Regards,

Dale.

[dpaterson]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

No, it ain't gonna work, theoretically the same power going through the speaker with or without the resistor, in reality (not going to try to explain impedance vs resistance here), probably a little more without the resistor.

But again, if you are trying to use speakers to change the "voice" of the amp, speakers made for modeling amps are voiced to have "no voice" if that makes sense.

Well lemme ask ya this question:

How MUCH power would I lose, do you think, by putting in 8Ω speakers??? Half, less than half, that type of thing. I mean: they're plenty loud as they are now with the 4Ω speakers (truth be told I've only opened them up on 10 about twice for the fun of it and they overpowered EVERYTHING including my PA so a LITTLE bit of loss wouldn't be the end of the word but defining "a LITTLE bit of loss" is they key here).

Only reason I'm thinking about changing the speakers is because I've seen one or two posts where it's been surmised that in order to keep the cost of these amps. down the sure fire way to have done this would have been to skimp on the quality of the speakers (they're not branded at all i.e. "no name brand" in all of the CODE amps.). Some that have actually done this i.e. changed the speakers to name brand full range speakers swear they're better and the "fight" between bass and tops. has all but disappeared (I can only assume this means more mids.).

Regards,

Dale.

[devastone]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

Roughly half the power depending on the power amp design. But, that isn't a reduction in volume by 1/2, it's only ~3dB, which means, unless you are running the volume wide open (which is generally not recommended on modelers or SS amps), you may just turn the volume knob up a little more than normal, say from 1:00 to 1:30-ish.

To cut the volume in half, you would have to cut the power by roughly 10X, or down to 5W.

And yes, I agree on mfrs skimping on speakers and better speakers, even full range modeling speakers, may greatly improve the sound. It's just different kind of change than say running your Marshall JCM800 through a cab with G12T-75s vs a cab with V30s, that gives the amp a completely different voice.

[Mincer]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

BTW, as a big Dio fan, I love his band Elf, too.

[LLL]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

BTW, as a big Dio fan, I love his band Elf, too.

[Jacew]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

Based on some posts I've seen floating around it seems to be generally recommended that if you DO change the speakers in the CODE amps. for the "normal" Celestions that you don't use the cab. emulations. Could make sense based on what you're saying.

As noted on the thread: I like 'em (the CODE amps.) i.e. no complaints. They may be a contributing factor to my not getting my "God-like" tone but it's a process and starting with the pickups first I reckon.

As far as this resistor thing goes: I read somewhere last night that it makes no difference if you do this i.e. if you lower the speaker impedance. It was stated that any re-gain of power is just dissipated as heat. Is this indeed true???

Regards,

Dale.

I don't think regular guitar speakers would sound good in CODE. However adding speaker out for a normal speaker is easy mod, and in my experience real speaker with real guitar cab sounds much better than sims.

I think cab sims may be the most overlooked / hard things to model in amps. It's difficult, if not impossible, to get that "thump" because it's really a physical thing of the cab and speaker combo. Not just tone you can capture.

[Blackie13]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

just get a DSL combo, a DMZ SD or a DD and you're done...
Viv's tone in dio days was the most generic tone ever...

[donaldr]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

@dpaterson: Personally I would not change the speaker in your Marshall Code, that will not get you closer to Vivian Campbell sound. This will only give you another sound out of the Code. Most modelling amps don't use an FRFR speaker, they use a custom speaker with internal EQ to compensate for the speaker response and the model amp/cab they want to emulate. Just have a look and there's a bunch using Celestion Seventy80 which is a guitar speaker, not an FRFR.
Anyway, if I were you I'll buy a real modeler (Eleven Rack, Helix, Kemper, Fractal) and a real FRFF speaker (monitor or PA). This will get your sound within a week, with the guitars you currently have.

[JohnnyBsurfin]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

just get a DSL combo, a DMZ SD or a DD and you're done...
Viv's tone in dio days was the most generic tone ever...

Well I got all that and still don't sound like Campbell!

[JohnnyBsurfin]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

Well I got all that and still don't sound like Campbell!

Another generic tone I love that I can't quite get is Adrian Vandenburgs "burning heart" solo.

[STLMTLHD79]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

Man i cant believe this thread has gone on this long. All i know is this. Most metal/DIO fans HATE Viv's tone on these records. I, like the OP, have a soft spot for it as well. It was a tone of true young firecracker guitar player who wanted to play as fast as he wanted. Viv was super young when he did these records-early to mid 20s tops. All i know is that the Black Les Paul Deluxe he had routed for full humbuckers and I am almost certain that the neck pickup is an X2N. No idea what was in the bridge. Also, no idea what he used in the bridge pickups of those early San Dimas Charvel's he used back then for the first 3 Dio records.

I would also LOVE to know what pickups he used in the bridge position of that Les paul and in his Charvels from that time period.

We will never know what the tone was after these albums with his Kramer Nightswan....well...because he never recorded anything with these guitars. We didnt hear a recorded album from him till 1991 with Shadow King and by then, I think he had moved on to Tom Andersons.....and that record was terribly done AOR....

[dpaterson]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

Hello.

OK. Gotta keep my posts short and to the point!!! LOL!!!

THIS (below) only occurred to me yesterday when I was listening to another Dio concert i.e. "Live at Donnington 1983" (don't get confused with "Live at Donnington 1987" as that's another guitarist and another guitar and of no consequence here):

I want ya all to please just listen to these two clips. The first is Vivian in the studio on the Holy Diver album (before the tour obviously). The second is Vivian at Donnington in 1983. The Donnington tone is exactly the same tone as the tone on that video at the beginning of the thread. That's the tone I'm after. And I can tell ya it's THAT guitar (the white Charvel) with whatever pickups are in it. You can easily hear the difference. The studio stuff wasn't recorded with that guitar I don't think (at least that seems to be the general consensus around here and I would have to agree). I cannot find a single pic. or video of the Donnington 1983 show but below also is a pic. taken from the Fresno show also in 1983 and GUESS WHAT??? See anything common and familiar??? And can you hear that "gnarly woody midrangey jangle"??? Totally different from the other almost "midrange scooped" (if I'm using the word "scooped" correctly anyway) of the studio albums and the other concerts (and other guitarists e.g. Craig Goldie and the other dude that came later).






Point is and to respond to all posts above (and a crass attempt to cut a long story short): I'm now more convinced than ever to start with the pickups (DM SDs and SD Invaders) and go from there. I can get that tone from my CODE amps. Of that I'm 99.9% sure. I don't think I'll get the "sanitised" studio tone from them though (not that it's something I want but just saying). Also not by any means saying that the pickups are going to be the "magic bullet" but I'm thinking it's at least a good place to start.

Will not change any speakers until I've changed pickups.

Heard too may bad reports about the DSL range I'm afraid. And not to mention the fact that I've already spent a little too much on CODE amps. And like I said: I really do reckon I can get that tone out of them. But time will tell (soon).

STLMTLHD79:

You posted while I was busy composing the above. Yeh. Kramer Nightswan II. Hence my Blaze. Dunno what I was thinking as my Jacksons, even with their stock pickups, come closer to what I'm looking for. As per this thread though: some agreement seems to have been reached re: the Charvel pickups i.e. Invaders first and at some point later DM SD. Will let ya know though (when I get my "God-like" tone!!! LOL!!!). (DM SD should be here next week).

As far as the thread is concerned:

I'm really appreciative of all of the input. And let's face it: pickups aside I could talk about Dio for the NEXT thirty years!!! LOL!!!

Thanks everyone.

Chat later.

Regards,

Dale.

[dpaterson]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

Sorry. Need to add the following (don't skip my earlier post above though!!!).

It was a tone of true young firecracker guitar player who wanted to play as fast as he wanted.

This makes all the difference. The sheer energy. Just take a look at the new stuff nowadays. I also watch the likes of Judas Priest, Arch Enemy, the list goes on. But you know what I've noticed: as fantastic as these bands are there's something missing to me. It's almost as if the guitarists are just up there playing to themselves and the rest of the performance seems to feed off of this. I was trying to describe this to somebody the other day and the best I could come up with was this: if you put a piece of glass or perspex between the Judas Priest stage and the audience then that's what it feels like watching them. Even the interaction between Halford and the audience seems a bit "pushed" or "staged". And were it not for Ms. White-gluz I could say the same thing about Arch Enemy. I could even say (to a lesser extent) the same about Craig Goldie with Dio. By contrast: just look at the energy that Vivian had at those concerts!!! Makes a BIG difference. Other bands that come to mind with this type of energy are AC-DC (back in the day anyway) and Whitesnake (also the earlier years). Matter of fact: in those years even the DRUMMER interacted with the audience and got them going (good 'ol Vinnie there). Alright: Jimmy was Jimmy!!! LOL!!! But he enjoyed himself nevertheless. Who knows. Maybe it's just that we're in a different era or something. Maybe it's just me. Admittedly: I've never had the privilege of seeing these acts live so maybe I'm wrong and talking out of turn. But the DVD's are uninspiring. The music is fantastic but the "performance"??? Take the pyro. and other effects out of the mix of these acts and... But 1983/1984 Dio/Vivian pushes me over the edge every single time!!! There's just something raw, flowing, and uncut about those performances. Almost as if they're kinda "loose" as opposed to the "sanitised tightness" of the new stuff today (and I really do like a lot of the new stuff today i.e. just saying that it's not the same).

And one thing is for sure: Dio himself never lost this or HIS energy right up until the last!!! This no matter HOW miserable the other band members appeared to be (Mr. Iommi comes to mind at this juncture i.e. he never looked "happy"!!! LOL!!!).

Regards,

Dale.

P.S.

You ever see Dio having to actively encourage the audience to "stand up and shout"??? Nuff said!!!

[freefrog]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

Hi Dale,

I don't know at all if you've tried anything related to real or virtual "cable capacitance" since my post 25. My weeks are way too busy to allow me long and repeted attempts to help. I've not even read all the answers posted in this thread until now (sorry about that).

Thinking twice about it, I've said to myself that a capacitor next to a radio emitter (the "bug" plug of your AKG) might create parasitic interferences. I've also thought that IF Marshall Codes include cab modeling, the heavy EQing possibly related to it might "hide" the subtle mid enhancement due to stray capacitance. I've the experience of such a "deafness" with some digital modelers, that I use rather extensively in various contexts when I don't play one of my analog rigs.

So I'm curious to know if you've put a low value cap between hot and ground of your guitar(s) output jack plug and what it did (or not).

A new "good luck" to you anyway. :-)

[Francois]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

Just listened to the two sound clips you posted (from Holy Diver album and from the live recording).

IMO nailing the exact feel of his (fingers) vibrato is more crucial to his tone than replicating his rig.

And yes you may enjoy a pickup swap. You've got good recommendations.