Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

[Jacew]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

Maybe you just need that X2N in the bridge + cranked JCM800 + cab with speakers he was using at the time (I would be interested to know what. Always thought they were v30, but if they weren't yet around...)

Honestly I have to say one big obstacle here may be the CODE. While it may be able to closely emulate the tone, you seem that accurate about it it's probably not close enough.

Try it with proper guitar cab (switch to head version or mod?) and I suppose you'd get quite a bit closer.

Pickups don't really have that much effect with modeling amps as usual tube front end.

[dpaterson]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

Hello.

In response to the above three posts.

I'm pretty sure there's a L-O-T going on to get the tones (either one of them) not least of which is his skill.

I sure do have some good recommendations. As I said: am gonna fit the DM SD in a Jackson first and then see. If that works: Invaders in the Blaze next I reckon.

Is everybody sure that he JUST used a JCM800 and a OD pedal on the studio recordings??? If so: does that mean the amp. was micd. up or something else??? Somebody posted a video earlier on in the thread and in that video it would appear that at some stage (not sure exactly at which stage) he sure wasn't shy to use a lot of rack mount stuff (processors and effects and the rest so far as I could tell from the video). Sure be interesting to get some FACT on this.

As far as the pickups and modelling amps. are concerned: I cannot comment and will have to wait and see I guess. But I am 100% sure that I have three guitars and two of them have "scooped" midrange this based on the absolutely AWEFUL sound I get from this amp. sim. software i.e. even with amp. sim. software (even using IRs) I can hear the "missing" midrange in those two. The software at least eliminates any issue with the CODE amps. for the sake of comparison anyway.

The rest of this post is in response to freefrog (so you don't have to strain yourselves and read the rest of the post!!! LOL!!!).

freefrog:

I've not done the tests with the caps. as I don't have caps. of those values i.e. only noticed afterward you are talking about pF and not uF (I have caps. lying around of your "garden variety tone caps." is all). But I'll get some and try.

However and since your post and your videos I've done some testing. The results will probably mean a lot more to you than me but here goes (not in any particular order). But I definitely think you're onto something here too (pickups aside).

I daisy chained a few guitar cables together ending up with different lengths (direct into the amps,). BIG difference from my wireless system. Seemed to lose input (output from the guitars) so had to dial distortion up a bit. But definitely some more mids. (not enough though but a definite increase). I'd have to say a fuller sound with less tops and less bottoms.

This one is interesting. I have a Radial Studio Reamper. I plugged a guitar wireless receiver into that and from there out to the amps. ALMOST the same type of result as above. Not quite sure what goes on with a reamper (other than that it converts from line level to instrument level). Dunno. It seemed to "tame" the bottom and and top end and lift mids. (again only slightly).

One thing that I've not mentioned but with all of the above this could be playing a part (I don't have the answer though). My wireless receivers have a "volume" pot. and from what I gather this allows you to sort of "sweep" output levels from mic. (minimum), instrument (I assume when it's at around 12 o'clock i.e. in the middle) and line-level (when it's on full). The CODE amps. are very sensitive to this control. When on full: loads of distortion but it becomes muddy and even fizzy (depending on the amp. settings). When in the middle: lose distortion and unfortunately sustain but gain a lot of clarity. Mic. level (minimum) cannot be used i.e. not enough output. In all cases though: definitely a "thinner" sound than with instrument cables (mids. drop and bass and particularly treble come up). I'm wondering if there's maybe some type of impedance mismatch between these receivers and the CODE amps. Is that possible??? Here's a link to the exact setup (specs. below on the page): https://www.musiciansfriend.com/pro-...ug-transmitter

One other thing that gives me a subtle but audible difference in tone: ensuring that my LAST pedal in a chain (just before the amps.) is a buffered bypass pedal. This also seems to make a difference i.e. seems to tame some harshness and retain some mids. (although as I say it's rather subtle i.e. nothing like the cable experiment above).

From what I'm gathering here: these amps. are a little more "flaky" than tubes and far more susceptible to these little anomalies.

So there you have it (so far).

Matter of interest: given that I have 0.047uF and 0.022uF caps. lying around can I not connect a few of them together to get to your PF range (for testing purposes)???

Regards,

Dale.

[freefrog]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

freefrog:

I've not done the tests with the caps. as I don't have caps. of those values i.e. only noticed afterward you are talking about pF and not uF (I have caps. lying around of your "garden variety tone caps." is all). But I'll get some and try.

However and since your post and your videos I've done some testing. The results will probably mean a lot more to you than me but here goes (not in any particular order). But I definitely think you're onto something here too (pickups aside).

I daisy chained a few guitar cables together ending up with different lengths (direct into the amps,). BIG difference from my wireless system. Seemed to lose input (output from the guitars) so had to dial distortion up a bit. But definitely some more mids. (not enough though but a definite increase). I'd have to say a fuller sound with less tops and less bottoms.

[...]

Matter of interest: given that I have 0.047uF and 0.022uF caps. lying around can I not connect a few of them together to get to your PF range (for testing purposes)???

Hi again Dale,

Your results with daisy chained cables are understandeable, albeit not totally on par with my experience through analog gear and although it doesn't give a clear idea of the stray capacitance involved. IME with tube amps, it starts to be really noticeable @ 20ft / 6m of cable (900pF). Now, some guitar heroes play with 66ft/20m or 99ft/30m of cable and the tone of their passive PU's is drastically altered if there's no buffer in between.

Regarding capacitors: putting two of the same value in series divides their capacitance by two. You'd have to put 10 to 20 0.O22µF caps in series to reach a "realistic" capacitive value. Now, 5 of them in series would give you the same capacitive load than 99ft/30m of cable, FWIW. :-)

[Mincer]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

I haven't kept up with Viv's tone over the years...how does he differ now in Def Lep?

[dpaterson]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

I haven't kept up with Viv's tone over the years...how does he differ now in Def Lep?

I honestly don't know myself i.e. never bothered with them.

Don't think I've ever listened to him with Whitesnake either to be honest (don't know even if there is any footage or audio around anywhere).

Regards,

Dale.

[NoelH]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

Seems to me the biggest factor in Campbell's tone was his use of a Boss Graphic for a Boost pedal. His tone sounds like a 2203 or 2204 with a Graphic hitting it in front.

[Toejam]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

I think I've caught up now on the relevant posts (relevant to my quest anyway).

One last question (for now anyway):

SD Invaders!!! Is the Invader bridge pickup F-spaced??? And if NOT: WHY not??? If NOT: then what's the difference between the Invader neck and Invader bridge pickups???

I'm asking because I've been thinking about this Blaze issue. I mean to say: I think I'm fooling myself thinking it'll appreciate in value??? Or am I??? Dunno. But maybe it'd be better for me to actually play the (beautiful) thing and replace the pickups with Invaders and have done with it??? I can then put the Full Shred and JB (SH-4) from the Blaze into my white Jackson, order a DM SD neck for my black Jackson, and done and dusted. And if all of this don't work: gonna be having a MASSIVE garage sale!!! LOL!!!

Regards,

Dale.

Invaders are only one spacing because the pole pieces are huge and capture the whole string within its magnetic field. The neck version is less hot. The tone of the Invader is warm and dark, a lot of bass and low mids. The Full Shred is brighter with more highs and high mids.

[dpaterson]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

Invaders are only one spacing because the pole pieces are huge and capture the whole string within its magnetic field. The neck version is less hot. The tone of the Invader is warm and dark, a lot of bass and low mids. The Full Shred is brighter with more highs and high mids.

Found the solution thanks to one or two people on my other threads. They’re called Synyster Gates Invaders (working from my iPad at the moment so dunno how to copy and paste a link but just look for my other two threads and links are there). That’s if I can still get them from SD. Will know comes Monday I guess. These would be for my Blaze. I reckon the DM SD is gonna sort out my black Jackson real nice (as in “Dio/Viv” nice).

Regards,

Dale.

[Toejam]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

I'm pretty sure the Synyster Gates Invaders are just regular Invaders with different colored pole pieces, which you can order them from the Custom Shop with the colored pole pieces just like everybody else. They have huge pole pieces for regular bridges or trems, the poles are not spaced apart any differently since the strings will align over them no matter what.

[dpaterson]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

Hello.

Nope. Synyster Gates Invaders are (were???) definitely available in an F-spaced version. Just Google “Synyster Gates Seymour Duncan” and you will get a link to an article on SD’s website (sorry I cannot post the link at this time as noted above).

Regards,

Dale.

[dpaterson]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

Dudes.

I found two interesting videos this morning.


Vivian, Whitesnake, Live, 1987, Kramer Nightswan:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ON_OwEI9mlY

TOTALLY different sound (I know it well too i.e. Whitesnake being the runner up to Dio in my little world).


And then this dude below. NO idea who he is but he sure has some interesting insights and factoids on the subject (and dunno if it's my imagination but the dude has LONG fingers):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoPp0NF9sSg

He sure does get a nice tone from THAT guitar!!!

Doesn't Zakk play something like that??? I hear something "Wylde" in there too.


Regards,

Dale.

[dpaterson]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

Hmmmnnn...

Found this today (changing amp. speakers):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nZCyPUPxz4

Yet another "fly in the ointment".

Sure hope these pickups are gonna make a difference otherwise next year is starting to look like it's gonna be (yet another) expensive year!!! LOL!!!

For the record though: my CODE amps. do not even sound remotely as bad as the one in the video with the stock speakers. But still: the difference in tone, given the exact same presets and guitar, are quite something to behold and pretty interesting.

Regards,

Dale.

[StratMatt77]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

I just watched a video on YouTube of a demo of the Duncan Custom in a Les Paul https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HVXaQ0GbSM and noticed a comment from the video maker that is relevant to this thread:
Here is his comment that indicates that, in his experience, it is the Custom SH-5 that is most similar to the Dimarzio Super Distortion: "I enjoy both pickups. They both have similar voicings. I think the Super Distortion is a bit tighter feeling under the fingers. I wouldn't have a problem using either pickup."

DiMarzio's description of the Super Distortion seems to confirm my theory that this is all about getting high output (well, by 1980's standards of "high output")!
"This pickup started a sound revolution. Replacement pickups simply didn’t exist before the invention of the Super Distortion® in the early Seventies. The Super Distortion® (and its original 3-conductor version, the Dual Sound®) was the first pickup specifically designed to kick a tube amp into total overdrive, and is still the standard by which all other high-output pickups are measured."

[StratMatt77]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

Hmmmnnn...

Found this today (changing amp. speakers):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nZCyPUPxz4

Yet another "fly in the ointment".

Sure hope these pickups are gonna make a difference otherwise next year is starting to look like it's gonna be (yet another) expensive year!!! LOL!!!

For the record though: my CODE amps. do not even sound remotely as bad as the one in the video with the stock speakers. But still: the difference in tone, given the exact same presets and guitar, are quite something to behold and pretty interesting.

Regards,

Dale.

Hey Dale, in that demo of the distorted "You Shook Me All Night Long" riff, compared to the stock speaker, I think the WGS Veteran 30 sounds congested like someone turned the presence and treble down or threw a blanket over it.

And that makes sense for one or two reasons (depending upon if my second reason is valid or not):
#1 People think that the WGS Veteran 30 is the Vintage 30 replacement, but it is NOT. According to the tonal description on their website, the Veteran30 has less treble/presence than the Vintage 30 and less than their ACTUAL V30 speaker replacement- the RETRO 30.
WGS describes the Retro 30 as the Vintage 30 equivalent, BUT with the V30s sometimes annoying/piercing high mids (low treble?) hump dialed back.

I have almost zero experience with different guitars and amps and speakers, but you have hit on the topic I do know on this!
I have a 2x12 cab with a Vintage 30 (the pre-broken-in version from Avatar Speakers that they call "Hellatone") and a Retro 30.
I have a piece of cardboard so I can over one or the other to compare. I have the Retro 30 in use at the moment, but sometimes I switch to the Vintage 30 to get that defined, pronounced upper mid grind on distorted chords... and then sometimes (apparently the last time I played) I find the V30's prominent upper mids too shrill when soling up high on the neck and switch to the Retro 30 and bump up the treble or presence to make it more like the V30, but without it becoming too harsh.
And then to repeat myself word-for-word sometimes I switch back to the Vintage 30 to get that defined, pronounced upper mid grind on distorted chords if I'm playing Alice In Chains or Metallica something like that.

It is important to know that I have a soldano astroverb, which I understand from reading internet comments apparently has more prominent high mids (and treble) than a Marshall or whatever.
So maybe the V30 is merely a bad match for soldanos… especially when using a maple neck strat. HOWEVER, it sounds PERFECT for Alice In Chains type riffs- especially with my Hamer SATF (a PRS-shaped mahogany cheapo guitar) in Drop D. For Linkin Park or AIC riffs I go to the Vintage 30 for that bite.
One time Mike Soldano told me that he likes Greenbacks with his.

If I had a Veteran 30 I would probably hate it because it lacks presence (as shown in that clip).

Are you are plugged into a closed-back cab or are you just running your CODES's open back combo speakers and cab?

My 1x12 combo cab sounds boxy and bad. I always run the 2x12.

And reason #2: My understanding is that modelling amps are equipped with neutral sounding speakers while tube amps are equipped with the typical intentionally colored speaker.

[dpaterson]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

Hey StratMatt77.

Thanks for posting, the link, and the info.

Guess I’m gonna find out soon enough i.e. the DM SD should be here by Friday and I ordered a SD Invader today.

In the meantime I’ve been doing some more testing and it’s become very apparent to me that my wireless system is indeed an integral part of my tone. Not sure if this is a good thing or a bad thing. Suffice to say it is not transparent as one would think it should be. With instrument cables my tone is flat and lifeless but plug back into my wireless and things bristle again and seem to come alive (this is spite of my initial findings in these tests to the contrary). Always wondered why my CODE amps. sound better than anyone else’s and I now think I know why (although I have suspected the wireless system for some time but never actually spent the time to prove or disprove the theory until now and thanks to this thread).

And I am sure hoping these pickups are not going to be overpowering for these amps. From what I gather they were designed to easily push valves into overdrive. Not sure what’s going to happen. I already suspect that the pickups in my black Jackson are OVER hot (if there is such a thing) i.e. they cause some weird overtones sometimes. Like I said: gonna find out soon enough I guess.

Thanks again for your post.

Regards,

Dale.