Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

[dpaterson]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

Oh WOW.

Sorry. Just saw your second post above now with some good info. which I need to read through quick.

Chat now.

And thanks.

Regards,

Dale.

[dpaterson]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

Hey StratMatt77.

Hello again. Was so exited about your post I had to get out of bed to post this (takes too long on my iPad to type)!!! LOL!!!

Responses in no particular order i.e. "as they come".

What I found on that video was that the mids. jumped way out (albeit at the expense of some bottom and the tops). I also detected better clarity??? But I can tell you that my best tones from these amps. are usually with bass and resonance on zero, mid. and treble on ten, and presence at around four 'o clock. In other words: without an EQ pedal I cannot get any more mid. or treble out of them but I can get loads of bass if needs be. Also (and I don't know and cannot remember if this is the case with valves): with these amps. a particular preset may sound great at a certain volume but crank them up and everything changes. The very settings I've just described sound fantastic at low (recording) volumes (preset volume around 2.5 and master volume around 2). But crank them up with those same settings and they'll crack the enamel in your teeth (I kid you not). In addition: the louder they are the more bass response / resonance (which I guess stands to reason). So based on all of this: I can afford to install a speaker that would give me more mid. and treble as I can dial those back if needs be. Since watching that video and spending (far too much) time on the Internet today I would say that if I was to go that route I'd probably go with the Retro 30 (based purely on the info. on their website) and not the Vintage 30. What do you think of my logic here??? Celestions are out of the question for the simple reason that there is no 4Ω flavor whereas with the WGS speakers there are indeed 4Ω speakers available. And of course one thing we don't know is how the amps. were dialed in on that video but I doubt very much that mid. and treble and presence were set to my extremes. But even with these extremes: I'm using a compressor and an EQ just to get some more mids. and this is the reason I'm suspecting pickups at this stage.

Oddly enough JUST today earlier: I have asked Marshall to confirm if the speakers in the CODE range are FRFR speakers or actual guitar cab. speakers that have been specifically voiced for the CODE range. I'm awaiting their response. If they tell me that they are indeed FRFR speakers then there is this option from Celestion (although they don't seem to be available as yet and unfortunately they only come in 8Ω): https://celestion.com/product/200/f12x200/. If they tell me that they are actual guitar cab. speakers well then that gives me options (as above). I have read that if you DO put actual guitar cab. speakers into these amps. then you must turn OFF the cab. emulations. If this is indeed the case then it would follow that the CODE speakers are indeed FRFR speakers. But I want Marshall to confirm before going further with this. And of course even if they ARE FRFR speakers there must be way better quality speakers out there than the stock speakers. One thing I can tell you is they they do not SOUND like FRFR speakers i.e. if you put audio through them they sound just like guitar cab. speakers and certainly not like FRFR speakers (if you've ever played a backing track through a normal guitar cab. you'll know what I mean here). On the other hand: you'll note in the comments of that video (and I've read this on a few other places today) that everyone says that the CODE speakers sound WAY better after they've been broken in. I cannot say one way or the other because I've never had the privilege of being able to play these things at full tilt for an extended period of time (they are F**K loud) (always makes me smirk when people say they're not gig worthy).

The CODE50's are closed back combos. Some say they sound "boxy" while yet others say they lack that "chug". I've not found either to be true. Personal opinion is that they scroll through a couple of factory presets, muck about with a setting or two, and then complain. These amps. take time, and more time, and loads of patience, and more time to dial in (maybe not a good thing and for most probably not worth the effort but it is what it is). I've not modded my CODE50's at all (yet) (but I have added an effects loop to one of my CODE25's thinking I needed an effects loop at the time but turned out I don't) (but at least I proved a point i.e. that it could be done).

There's so many other factors at play here though. But I'll get there. "By hook or by crook" (as the saying goes).

As noted in my previous post: with any luck I'll have that DM SD installed and up and running over the weekend. That (and the SD Invader when it arrives) will tell me LOADS as to where to from here.

Anyways. Lemme know what you think.

And thanks again for the post (both posts).

Regards,

Dale.

[dpaterson]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

Hi.

Further to my post above I can confirm (Marshall themselves have confirmed) that the speakers for the CODE range are indeed guitar cab. speakers that were voiced specifically for the CODE range.

That's the good news.

The bad news: where to start i.e. which replacements???

Regards,

Dale.

[oilpit]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

Okay has it become abundantly clear to anybody that nothing is going to get this guy the tone he wants?

As soon as there is a consensus on *anything* or somebody points out a flaw in his line of incredibly specific criteria for replicating an easy-to-replicate guitar tone, he moves the goal posts and explains why whatever pickup/amp/EQ/technique is suggested actually *won't* work, or doesn't count, or is "cheating (whatever the hell that is supposed to mean).

Seriously Vivian Campbell could post in this thread with a list of the exact gear he used, the exact settings all his knobs were at, the barometric pressure at the time of recording and how he had his eggs prepared that morning and OP would come back and politely thank him, followed by 3 paragraphs dismissing everything he said, and explaining why he now thinks the missing link to his tone is actually buried somewhere in an incredibly inconsequential and minor part of his signal chain.

Lather. Rinse. Repeat.

[dpaterson]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

Okay has it become abundantly clear to anybody that nothing is going to get this guy the tone he wants?

As soon as there is a consensus on *anything* or somebody points out a flaw in his line of incredibly specific criteria for replicating an easy-to-replicate guitar tone, he moves the goal posts and explains why whatever pickup/amp/EQ/technique is suggested actually *won't* work, or doesn't count, or is "cheating (whatever the hell that is supposed to mean).

Seriously Vivian Campbell could post in this thread with a list of the exact gear he used, the exact settings all his knobs were at, the barometric pressure at the time of recording and how he had his eggs prepared that morning and OP would come back and politely thank him, followed by 3 paragraphs dismissing everything he said, and explaining why he now thinks the missing link to his tone is actually buried somewhere in an incredibly inconsequential and minor part of his signal chain.

Lather. Rinse. Repeat.

Well thanks for posting anyway. A pleasure making your acquaintance.

Ironically: evidently you're one of only a very few people that have actually read the entire thread!!! LOL!!!

(Edit)

And by the way: I think you've missed the point a wee bit (a bit of a shame after doing all of that reading I must say).

How Vivian got his tone is no longer in question. So I wouldn't argue with him if he told me direct. The question is how to get THAT tone with MY guitars and MY gear. BIG difference. And hence the thread.

Regards,

Dale.

[oilpit]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

Well thanks for posting anyway. A pleasure making your acquaintance.

Ironically: evidently you're one of only a very few people that have actually read the entire thread!!! LOL!!!

(Edit)

And by the way: I think you've missed the point a wee bit (a bit of a shame after doing all of that reading I must say).

How Vivian got his tone is no longer in question. So I wouldn't argue with him if he told me direct. The question is how to get THAT tone with MY guitars and MY gear. BIG difference. And hence the thread.

Regards,

Dale.

Hey man, just wanna start off by saying I wasn't trying to just rip into you, I have definitely been in your position with various holy grail tones so I get the desire to nail it 100%.

What I meant by my post was just that I think that there is a point where you gotta get as close as possible and then learn how to do the rest with your hands. I know that "tOne Is IN thE FiNGerS!1!" is an annoying response to get when you are looking for hardware recommendations but at the end of the day it is never possible to get every single frequency identical to what's in your head, and it sucks because 1. the more you dwell on it, the more you place that "grail tone" on a pedestal. 2. the more you do THAT, the more critical of your own tone, this exacerbates step number 1 and it just becomes a vicious cycle.

This, imo, is the position you are in, I just think that you're your own worst enemy in this situation because your standards are so high (not necessarily a bad thing), that you will always be looking to get a little closer, change that one last variable, try that one pickup you've been reading about. And that's part of the issue, it's easier to make tone sound good when you use adjectives than when you actually hear it, so descriptions of different pieces of gear are going to seem real damn enticing, but I genuinely think you are at a point where you will be more benefited by learning all those solos 100% backwards and forwards. I think if you get to that point and you still don't think you have achieved the tone in your head, it will be much easier to narrow down what part of your signal chain is at fault.

Hope my first post wasn't too mean, rock on man

[dpaterson]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

Hello.

Well as much as I hate to admit it: you're right on all counts!!! All jokes aside.

I just find it incredibly difficult to move ahead or even play for a few minutes if things are not sounding "just so". I don't think I'm alone on this score (seen many a post where guys just cannot "get it on" if they don't have their sound "perfect"). But that doesn't mean it's the right way particularly if you're working toward a certain goal. Many a time I've said to myself "just find something that sounds decent and practice and worry about the rest when you've got your act together". That works for about five minutes. Not a good thing at all.

So like I said: you're right on all counts (and then some).

Must say though that the thread has kinda gone way past the original topic (not a problem for me but can be confusing I guess). I mean to say: all I'm wanting to do at this stage is put in my new pickups. But then the topic of speakers came up (and the rest) so we kinda investigate further is all. Glad we did though i.e. at least I know that should I decide sometime in the future to change speakers in my amps. then I've got the background and technical details.

And no worries about the post either i.e. no offense was taken I assure you. Besides: sometimes I need somebody to "put the brakes on" and bring me to my senses because I have a very bad habit of going down some very very deep rabbit holes i.e. I tend to get lost in the technical aspects of this stuff. Sometimes I wonder if that's not where I fit in i.e. sound, lighting, producing, that type of thing as opposed to trying to be the artist because I can tell you that my playing has gone to absolute **** because I get sidetracked with all the technical stuff. I suppose on a positive note: at least if (WHEN???) I do get my act together I won't have to waste time getting my tone!!! LOL!!!

Thanks for the post.

Regards,

Dale.

[Dave Locher]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

I have also read the whole thread. My first thought the first day was "speakers" but I didn't want to add to the chaos. Someone else did later that night. Tonight I was thinking "dude has got to get out of his own head and just PLAY." Also taken care of a bit further into the thread.
So now a gentle question and suggestion: Do you enjoy this tone chase?
If you do, if the thrill of the hunt itself is exciting or interesting to you then carry on. But if it is not, if you are just making yourself miserable, then maybe you really should consider redirecting your ears and obsessive quest for perfect tone into an area where it would be more rewarding.
Likewise, if the chase is fun then carry on but if it is making you unhappy you might consider seeing someone about possible OCD or related issue. Obsessive fun is fun, no matter what anyone else might think. Obsessive agony is agony and feeding it will never make it go away. Only you know which it is for you.

[LLL]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

For the record, I fully support obsessive-compulsive tone chasing.

You learn a ton of stuff about gear and studio... which you can then apply to your own tones.

For myself, learning EQ/frequencies had the biggest impact.

[Rocco Crocco]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

Isolated guitar track for Campbell era Dio. The engineer EQ'd the daylights out of it. Studio trickery. You'll never get an amp to get this sound.

[Gtrjunior]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

Definitely a lot of studio processing but I don’t think this is unattainable in a live rig. Maybe not perfection but definitely very close.

[dpaterson]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

Good morning everyone.

F**k me gently. Is that not just the bestest thing you can hear first thing in the morning??? Man. It never fails to surprise me what this music does to me especially given all the years that I've been listening to it over and over and over again. It's like it flips some type of switch in me. I doesn't matter whether I'm down in the dumps, tired, hungover, had a crappy day: put it on and the adrenaline starts pumping and the world is the best place to be. Or weaving in and out of traffic at a reasonable speed on a freeway with the roof off and a decent stereo system pumping "Stand Up And Shout" or "King Of Rock And Roll" or "We Rock" (the live versions preferably). Or that first time you managed to play through an entire song (solo aside of course at this stage) i.e. will never forget the involuntary, uncontrollable, smile on my face when I started getting some of this down and thinking "I can do this". And on a good day: (Dio/Campbell) just pushes me over the edge!!!

Sorry. More than you all wanted or needed to know. But MAN it's good!!! Couldn't help myself!!! Thanks for the "video".

I'm not convinced that it's NOT possible to get that tone on a live rig. As Gtrjunior says: maybe not perfection but I think you can get it pretty close. And I am indeed pretty close (to the live sound anyway). I cannot say for sure just how much processing was done. One thing that does stand out though is that absolutely unmistakable sound of the JCM800 that kicks you in gut when the solo starts (around 1:56). That's a very "special" tone and I'm pretty much convinced, as good as the CODE's JCM800 emulation is, that I'm not going to get that tone from my CODE amps. without a speaker change (I know because I've spent a lot of time with this). However: the live tone that I'm after is doable as things stand now (it's a very different and slightly more generic tone in my opinion and is probably naturally EQ'd and processed by the PA system, venue acoustics, and whatever else goes with live sound). With my CODE amps. I come closer to the live tone but NOT using the JCM800 emulation with the stock speaker (and although this was a bit of a difficult pill to swallow at first: for once in my life I managed to say "it's (almost) the tone you seek: who cares about the technicalities").

When you listen to tracks like that (I have loads of them) though: Vivian was actually a "sloppy" or "loose" player on those tracks. I mean this in a GOOD way. It's not that "tight, accurate, almost sterile" type trip. You know what I'm saying??? Dunno if you agree. Put another way: very different from a Malmsteen or Satriani type trip where everything is "tight" and "accurate" (I love Malmsteen's earlier stuff and some Joe Satriani too so it's not that I'm biased i.e. just trying to explain something here). I mention this only because it's been brought up a few times on the thread that his playing style contributes to his tone (not sure I agree 100% though i.e. tone is tone which is different from "vibe"). Ironically one would think this would be easier to learn and replicate (but I ain't finding that unfortunately). His speed though: that's another story and not for the feint hearted!! Also: an integral part of his studio tone is that delay (which, fortunately, I replicate pretty darn well of late).

Anyway. Thanks for the posts.

My DM SD is in the country at last!!! May even get lucky today!!! LOL!!!

Chat soonest.

Thanks again.

Regards,

Dale.

[Rocco Crocco]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

Good morning everyone.

F**k me gently. Is that not just the bestest thing you can hear first thing in the morning??? Man. It never fails to surprise me what this music does to me especially given all the years that I've been listening to it over and over and over again. It's like it flips some type of switch in me. I doesn't matter whether I'm down in the dumps, tired, hungover, had a crappy day: put it on and the adrenaline starts pumping and the world is the best place to be. Or weaving in and out of traffic at a reasonable speed on a freeway with the roof off and a decent stereo system pumping "Stand Up And Shout" or "King Of Rock And Roll" or "We Rock" (the live versions preferably). Or that first time you managed to play through an entire song (solo aside of course at this stage) i.e. will never forget the involuntary, uncontrollable, smile on my face when I started getting some of this down and thinking "I can do this". And on a good day: (Dio/Campbell) just pushes me over the edge!!!

Sorry. More than you all wanted or needed to know. But MAN it's good!!! Couldn't help myself!!! Thanks for the "video".

I'm not convinced that it's NOT possible to get that tone on a live rig. As Gtrjunior says: maybe not perfection but I think you can get it pretty close. And I am indeed pretty close (to the live sound anyway). I cannot say for sure just how much processing was done. One thing that does stand out though is that absolutely unmistakable sound of the JCM800 that kicks you in gut when the solo starts (around 1:56). That's a very "special" tone and I'm pretty much convinced, as good as the CODE's JCM800 emulation is, that I'm not going to get that tone from my CODE amps. without a speaker change (I know because I've spent a lot of time with this). However: the live tone that I'm after is doable as things stand now (it's a very different and slightly more generic tone in my opinion and is probably naturally EQ'd and processed by the PA system, venue acoustics, and whatever else goes with live sound). With my CODE amps. I come closer to the live tone but NOT using the JCM800 emulation with the stock speaker (and although this was a bit of a difficult pill to swallow at first: for once in my life I managed to say "it's (almost) the tone you seek: who cares about the technicalities").

When you listen to tracks like that (I have loads of them) though: Vivian was actually a "sloppy" or "loose" player on those tracks. I mean this in a GOOD way. It's not that "tight, accurate, almost sterile" type trip. You know what I'm saying??? Dunno if you agree. Put another way: very different from a Malmsteen or Satriani type trip where everything is "tight" and "accurate" (I love Malmsteen's earlier stuff and some Joe Satriani too so it's not that I'm biased i.e. just trying to explain something here). I mention this only because it's been brought up a few times on the thread that his playing style contributes to his tone (not sure I agree 100% though i.e. tone is tone which is different from "vibe"). Ironically one would think this would be easier to learn and replicate (but I ain't finding that unfortunately). His speed though: that's another story and not for the feint hearted!! Also: an integral part of his studio tone is that delay (which, fortunately, I replicate pretty darn well of late).

Anyway. Thanks for the posts.

My DM SD is in the country at last!!! May even get lucky today!!! LOL!!!

Chat soonest.

Thanks again.

Regards,

Dale.

Last night I tried to replicate the isolated tone in the video. I used my Epiphone Les Paul with a DiMarzio Transition into a Line 6 Helix into my studio monitors. I used the Line 6 "Epic" original amp model, with is very mid-heavy Marshall-ish. I turned the gain down pretty low (around 4) , had a Tube Screamer (gain set very low, level set high) block in front of the amp. Close but no cigar.

I added a 10 band EQ block, dialed out most of the bass, and increased 4K and 8K by 4dB and 6dB respectively. These settings got me very, very close. With another EQ and 10 minutes I could have gotten a tiny bit closer, but for me it's not worth it because I like a little more bottom in my sounds.

I was surprised by how little gain I needed, and how much treble I had to add. YMMV.

[devastone]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

I have to add that a player's "touch" does affect the tone. You mentioned "tone is tone which is different from "vibe"", and yes, a player's phrasing is another part of their sonic "signature", but their touch on the strings, how they pick, etc... all add to their tone also.

John Suhr has a saying: “Practice cures most tone issues.”, he does know a few things about tone.

Also, as I have mentioned before, you don't want to put "standard" guitar speakers in a modeling amp.

And no, I haven't read every post in this thread, don't have that much time.

[oilpit]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

John Suhr has a saying: “Practice cures most tone issues.”, he does know a few things about tone.

God I remember when I would come on here and a few other forums when I was in high school and I would post incessantly (not unlike our friend OP has been doing) I would get *so annoyed* by everybody telling me that if I just learned how to play clean and fast and I plugged something mahogany to something a British sounding high gain amp that my tone would be 100% better if I focused less on the gear Slash played with and more on how many hundreds and hundreds of hours that he practiced.

I hated this advice. This was not the advice I wanted, surely there was some secret pickup or overdrive pedal or amplifier of string gauge or down tuning or SOMETHING that I could buy that would get be that sweet, sweet AFD lead tone.

But as I type this 10 years later and I see so many similarities in OP and my former self I wish I had listened to that advice the first time around because it would have saved me a ****load of time and money.