Guitar tone nerd faced with fact – what's in it really?

[robo]

We recorded an live album and with my band. Listening to it made me realize two things:

1. I'm not too happy about the overall guitar tone – but that's not the point here.
2. I play both a SD equipped Les Paul and a SD equipped Telecaster. But I'm having a hard time to really tell the difference… lets focus on that below.

I have a Les Paul with a 59/Custom pickup in the bridge and an old 80:s 59 in the neck. In the Tele I play a bridge Jerry Donahue and a Vintage for Tele neck.

All theese pickups have been carefully researched and I've tried several other pickups before setteling on theese. And a lot of this have come from discussions with you pickup-wizards here at the SD forum.

The bottom line
At home alone I can really hear the different nuances from say a Seth Lover to a Custom/59 in my Les Paul. But the truth is when I hear my recorded guitars on the live album I have a hard time telling even the guitars apart!

Is this pickup tinkery really just something for man cave type situations? In a band situation, in front of an audience, in a large venue, there's really hard to tell a LP and a Tele apart. If I had used this or that pickup would be totally impossible to notice.

Don't get me wrong – I like the chase of tone as much as any of you. But after hearing the finished album I got to wonder though… are we chasing shadows?

[AlexR]

Re: Guitar tone nerd faced with fact – what's in it really?

Recorded tones depend on the quality of the recording. If you are struggling for the two guitars (which should really be miles apart unless you're smothering on the gain) the the recording technique is letting you down.

[robo]

Re: Guitar tone nerd faced with fact – what's in it really?

Recorded tones depend on the quality of the recording. If you are struggling for the two guitars (which should really be miles apart unless you're smothering on the gain) the the recording technique is letting you down.

Well that's what I thought. But then I heard this and didn't know what to think of it. I know what guitar I play on what song – but I can't really hear it on the recording. And the recording sounds good over all. I used the same rig to both guitars – and I use just a little overdrive to push the amp over the edge, so it's a fairly clean sound.

My theory is that in a live situation there's so much other noise going around and fighting for the frequezies so you just hear "guitar" – not so much what pickups or even what guitar
And we just play the blues (vocals, drums, bass, guitar, piano, sax) so there's no heavy metal mayhem going on. Just the blues.

[devastone]

Re: Guitar tone nerd faced with fact – what's in it really?

What are you playing through? How much gain? Can you share some snippets of the songs (I understand not wanting to share a whole song). As mentioned, those guitars should wound quite different.

So many variables, so little time...

[beaubrummels]

Re: Guitar tone nerd faced with fact – what's in it really?

A really good Tele sounds like a vintage Les Paul, and a really good vintage Les Paul sounds like a really good vintage Tele. But if they sound identical on a recording, the amp, room, microphone, mic placement and mic pre are having a big influence on masking the details.

[robo]

Re: Guitar tone nerd faced with fact – what's in it really?

What are you playing through? How much gain? Can you share some snippets of the songs (I understand not wanting to share a whole song). As mentioned, those guitars should wound quite different. So many variables, so little time...

Yeah sure! The album is out on Spotify (and such…) so there's no secrecy.

I play through a Fender Blues Deluxe Reissue on the clean channel. Then I add a little dirt through a Boss SD1 set Level ten to, Gain ten to, Tone 12 o'clock. A wee bit of reverb – about 4 on the amp. Amp EQ:s Treble quarter to, Bass 12 O'clock, Mid quarter past.

Here's a song for instance. Starts slow but the (farily long) solo starts at 2:20. I use a tremolo first few bars but I kick it out of the loop a little bit in. I know what guitar I played – but can you really tell?

– Click link to open song on Spotify –

[devastone]

Re: Guitar tone nerd faced with fact – what's in it really?

Tried to listen on my phone, but it apparently requires a paid Spotify subscription, and I don't need any more paid subscriptions, sorry.

[NecroPolo]

Re: Guitar tone nerd faced with fact – what's in it really?

The spoty link doesn't work for me, too.

But in general, during recording / mixing so many things can jump off the rail that would be impossible even to list breifly

It can vary from tech issues or music production to hard decisions. Did your cherished guitar tone pushed up a nod @2000Hz, killing the vocal clarity? It must be cut to make the record balanced. Did the tone of your life contains a little too much of beef, masking the bass frequencies a little? The lows must be filtered, otherwise it will cause a neck-deep mud. One tiny change on a value and it's not the same tone anymore.

In the reality, a listenable (balanced) recording is a truckload of compromises. If raw guitar tone goes straight to the mix, most of the time it ruins the whole picture.

Niki Lauda said something like this about not 100% races, like "Fxck that all! It is done. It is what it is, the next one will be better." Maybe, this sort of attitude would give for us a higher happiness factor in our recordings, I don't know

[GuitarStv]

Re: Guitar tone nerd faced with fact – what's in it really?

Guitars sound very different when you're playing with a band vs when you're playing on your own. If you come up with settings on your own and then record with a band, you are likely using the wrong settings . . . that's why you don't like the recorded tone.

[robo]

Re: Guitar tone nerd faced with fact – what's in it really?

The spoty link doesn't work for me, too.

But in general, during recording / mixing so many things can jump off the rail that would be impossible even to list breifly

It can vary from tech issues or music production to hard decisions. Did your cherished guitar tone pushed up a nod @2000Hz, killing the vocal clarity? It must be cut to make the record balanced. Did the tone of your life contains a little too much of beef, masking the bass frequencies a little? The lows must be filtered, otherwise it will cause a neck-deep mud. One tiny change on a value and it's not the same tone anymore.

In the reality, a listenable (balanced) recording is a truckload of compromises. If raw guitar tone goes straight to the mix, most of the time it ruins the whole picture.

Niki Lauda said something like this about not 100% races, like "Fxck that all! It is done. It is what it is, the next one will be better." Maybe, this sort of attitude would give for us a higher happiness factor in our recordings, I don't know

Don't work for Spotify so I don't know about these linking things. If anybody bothers just search in Spotify for "Ida Andersson Band Glory Box". But it's no big deal…

As somebody said earlier in this thread a really good Tele will sound like a Les Paul and a really good Les Paul will sound like a Tele. As much as I love my guitars … in a rehearsal room I clearly hear the difference. And on our studio albums I clearly hear a difference – it's was this live album (my first ever) that made me go huh!
Maybe its the ambience of the room or the other instruments or a combination of things but I can't hear any difference at all on the guitars.

And my question was really – if you can't tell in a live situation between a Les Paul and a Tele – why bother with pickup output tinkering and wiring options, pot-switches and uf-cap-choices. That level of refinery is impossible to hear in a live situation anyway.

[jeremy]

Re: Guitar tone nerd faced with fact – what's in it really?

same player, same rig, same recording techniques is going to give you a fairly similar sound. the subtle nuances of the different guitars in that equation are lost in a live recording for the most part.

the reason i, and probably a lot of us, mess with pups is the subtle differences make a difference to me. the happier i am with my tone, the more i can focus on being in the moment and playing my best. if something in my tone is irking me then im not as focused as i should be on playing. i know 95% of my audience doesnt care what i use, for a crowd of 200 that leaves space for eight guitar nerds who will rip me apart no matter what i use and two sound guys who want the stage volume to be low and not have too much bass in the guitar tone

[robo]

Re: Guitar tone nerd faced with fact – what's in it really?

same player, same rig, same recording techniques is going to give you a fairly similar sound. the subtle nuances of the different guitars in that equation are lost in a live recording for the most part.

the reason i, and probably a lot of us, mess with pups is the subtle differences make a difference to me. the happier i am with my tone, the more i can focus on being in the moment and playing my best. if something in my tone is irking me then im not as focused as i should be on playing. i know 95% of my audience doesnt care what i use, for a crowd of 200 that leaves space for eight guitar nerds who will rip me apart no matter what i use and two sound guys who want the stage volume to be low and not have too much bass in the guitar tone

Haha! Yes you are absolutely right! I like to tinker with my guitars too – this is a really guitar nerdy forum after all But you are right about why we do this – it's for our selves! I can hear the difference on stage. Even if I can't tell the guitars apart on the finished album I surely could tell them apart when I was up on stage recording the album. And since we play bluesy stuff all my solos are improvised. And I need things to sound and feel right to be able to get to that place where I don't really think about the guitar at all I just play the damn thing.

And in that aspect this down to molecules tinkering really matters. I swapped from a 59 bridge to a Custom/59 bridge in my Les Paul and it really bites in another way now. It responds better to my playing and that makes me play better. So in a way all this technical insanity makes sense after all – I play better with it – and who would not wanna play their best when recording a live album. Thanks!

[MGW]

Re: Guitar tone nerd faced with fact – what's in it really?

I'd love to give your song a listen but I won't use Spotify.
Sorry.

[daenius]

Re: Guitar tone nerd faced with fact – what's in it really?

I tend to use a race car analogy for this

As an observer, all the race cars just look like they're super fast and just zooming by and cornering perfectly and all that.
Only the driver inside the car can tell you the nuances and differences in handling and responsiveness of each car they drive.

The audience can barely tell the difference, but YOU feel a difference when you play. This difference is what inspires you to perhaps play differently or just feel a certain way about what and how you're playing. IMO if you're tone chasing because you think your audience will immediately pick out a Les Paul from a Strat then you're chasing shadows, and honestly you don't want to play to a crowd that cares more about your gear and tone than the MUSIC that you're playing. But I think most of us are tone chasing because we're going for what inspires us to play our best

A recorded guitar tone depends on way too many factors. If you're recording in a studio, you'll find that the choice of mic, mic placement, and speaker cabinets seem to make more of a difference than different pickups and guitars and what not. That is normal. Way too many moving parts in the equation and ultimately what matters is play and record through a rig that captures the performance.

[Discharged]

Re: Guitar tone nerd faced with fact – what's in it really?

robo, if you're willing to publish the song on, say, You Tube, you'll have literally ten of thousand of users at your disposal to comment on the guitar tone.

Not need to publish the whole song, just the part/s you thing are most critical is more than enough.

/Peter