Vetting some wiring "fact" I was told

[Jack_TriPpEr]

In another guitar group that I am a member of, someone claimed that the sequence that components are wired together does not matter when the join method on each of those components is In Series (vs In Parallel). Is that accurate? They cited mathematics, e.g.. that 2+3 yields the same result as 3+2.

Following is an example scenario of a few components that would be wired In Series: Half Out Of Phase (HOoP) wiring. That is done by 1) flipping phase on one pickup - hot wire goes to ground, and ground wire goes to hot, and 2) adding a Capacitor in series to that pickup's signal. The diagrams i have seen online depicting HOoP wirijg show the capacitor following the phase-flipped Hot output of the pickup, but this theory suggests that i could alternatively wire that capacitor just after the phase-flipped wire that is being sent to ground. Well, can it really work that way?

Another example scenario to chew on: this theory would also imply that Artie's Demud mod (see attached pic) could have that capacitor placed between the wire going to ground and ground, vs after the hot wire as Artie's diagram depicts. But that idea doesn't seem/feel right. So looking for input on this.

[beaubrummels]

Sounds reasonable in theory. Might be easy to test. If you have 3 alligator clip wires, get in between your jack and the amp with one clip wire handling ground directly and the other two inserting a cap in the line on hot. Then switch them and see if you get the same sound.

[ItsaBass]

Yes, with an isolated series of components, the components can be placed in any order to get the same resulting values.

How you figure that this suggests that you can put a de-mud capacitor on the ground wire for the same effect escapes me.

Things adding up to the same values does not mean that they behave the same way in operation. It's not just about values. It's about the way things flow through the circuit, and how this affects what gets heard and what doesn't get heard, in the end.

To keep it very simple, ground on a guitar is the chute to the trash can: that which does not get heard. Hot is that which does get heard.

Caps let highs pass; they trap and dissipate lows. They do that no matter whether they are in the hot path or the ground path. But think about that more closely before declaring that they will have the same effect in either location.

Again, when in the ground path, a cap is passing highs and blocking lows from passing...and it's doing the same thing when placed in the hot path. But remember that the ground path is what doesn't get heard, and the hot path is what does get heard. So when you pass highs in the ground path (the path that doesn't get heard), it means you are making them inaudible. Apply the same thinking to the hot path. When you pass highs there (the path that does get heard), it means you are letting the highs be heard, and preventing the lows from being heard.

In other words, it means that they will have opposite tonal effects when used in each path...even though you'd get the same value if you were to measure capacitance with the cap in either location.

You have to know what your measurements are telling you. They are telling you only what you are asking them to tell you: capacitance. OK, so you know the capacitance of that particular leg, but that's it. Knowing capacitance of a certain series of components is not the same as examining how the circuit works in operation. Value is one element, but location within the circuit is an even bigger one.

[ArtieToo]

Hey Itsa . . . that's not exactly correct. What you're saying does matter somewhat when talking about connecting tone caps, but not in this situation. For the demud mod, all three components, (2 coils and a cap), are all in series electrically. So it doesn't matter what order they're in. The pickup generates an AC signal, so "ground" is an arbitrary connection point just used as a reference. The cap will still block low frequencies, regardless of where it's connected. The following will all sound the same:


But to the OP, .047 uf seems a little extreme. I use a .01 uf in parallel with a 500k resistor. Works good for a 59. But, of course, ideally, you should play with different values and see what sounds best for the pup you're using.

[Jack_TriPpEr]

Hey Itsa . . . that's not exactly correct. What you're saying does matter somewhat when talking about connecting tone caps, but not in this situation. For the demud mod, all three components, (2 coils and a cap), are all in series electrically. So it doesn't matter what order they're in. The pickup generates an AC signal, so "ground" is an arbitrary connection point just used as a reference. The cap will still block low frequencies, regardless of where it's connected. The following will all sound the same:


But to the OP, .047 uf seems a little extreme. I use a .01 uf in parallel with a 500k resistor. Works good for a 59. But, of course, ideally, you should play with different values and see what sounds best for the pup you're using.

Artie,

Would it be possible for you to explain a little, about the prime factor(s) that determine which wiring scenarios that the order of components does matter, and which wiring scenarios where the order of components does not matter?

[freefrog]

In another guitar group that I am a member of, someone claimed that the sequence that components are wired together does not matter when the join method on each of those components is In Series (vs In Parallel). Is that accurate? They cited mathematics, e.g.. that 2+3 yields the same result as 3+2.

Following is an example scenario of a few components that would be wired In Series: Half Out Of Phase (HOoP) wiring. That is done by 1) flipping phase on one pickup - hot wire goes to ground, and ground wire goes to hot, and 2) adding a Capacitor in series to that pickup's signal. The diagrams i have seen online depicting HOoP wirijg show the capacitor following the phase-flipped Hot output of the pickup, but this theory suggests that i could alternatively wire that capacitor just after the phase-flipped wire that is being sent to ground. Well, can it really work that way?

Another example scenario to chew on: this theory would also imply that Artie's Demud mod (see attached pic) could have that capacitor placed between the wire going to ground and ground, vs after the hot wire as Artie's diagram depicts. But that idea doesn't seem/feel right. So looking for input on this.

Hello,

My 5spice sims show a slight difference between the two kinds of HOOP that you mention... Something like 0,5dB of amplitude. It's not enough to be noticeable sonically but it's enough to be considered as different electronically. :-)

I lack of free time to dig the reasons of this difference. Ill just add that in my humble understanding / simulations / experiments, things are a bit complicated by the properties of coils: they're not only series resistors but also inductors with a stray capacitance to ground (stray capacitance acting like some "invisible" low value capacitors in parallel with the coils). A series cap won't have exactly the same behaviour "before" and "after"' such complex filters...

Not sure my explanation is understandable. LOL. At least I've tried to share. :-)


Below is a sim of the dual resonant peak created by HOOP. One line involves the series cap "before" the 2d single coil. The other line involves the same series cap wired "after" the 2d pickup.FWIW.

[Jack_TriPpEr]

Hello,

My 5spice sims show a slight difference between the two kinds of HOOP that you mention... Something like 0,5dB of amplitude. It's not enough to be noticeable sonically but it's enough to be considered as different electronically. :-)

I lack of free time to dig the reasons of this difference. Ill just add that in my humble understanding / simulations / experiments, things are a bit complicated by the properties of coils: they're not only series resistors but also inductors with a stray capacitance to ground (stray capacitance acting like some "invisible" low value capacitors in parallel with the coils). A series cap won't have exactly the same behaviour "before" and "after"' such complex filters...

Not sure my explanation is understandable. LOL. At least I've tried to share. :-)


Below is a sim of the dual resonant peak created by HOOP. One line involves the series cap "before" the 2d single coil. The other line involves the same series cap wired "after" the 2d pickup.FWIW.

Thanks FreeFrog!

I did understand what you were trying to say about the complexities of pickups.

[Jack_TriPpEr]

Hello,

My 5spice sims show a slight difference between the two kinds of HOOP that you mention... Something like 0,5dB of amplitude. It's not enough to be noticeable sonically but it's enough to be considered as different electronically. :-)

I lack of free time to dig the reasons of this difference. Ill just add that in my humble understanding / simulations / experiments, things are a bit complicated by the properties of coils: they're not only series resistors but also inductors with a stray capacitance to ground (stray capacitance acting like some "invisible" low value capacitors in parallel with the coils). A series cap won't have exactly the same behaviour "before" and "after"' such complex filters...

Not sure my explanation is understandable. LOL. At least I've tried to share. :-)


Below is a sim of the dual resonant peak created by HOOP. One line involves the series cap "before" the 2d single coil. The other line involves the same series cap wired "after" the 2d pickup.FWIW.

Actually, I'm curious to know which sequence resulted in the lower amplitude?

[ToneFiddler]

Hello,

My 5spice sims show a slight difference between the two kinds of HOOP that you mention... Something like 0,5dB of amplitude. It's not enough to be noticeable sonically but it's enough to be considered as different electronically. :-)

I lack of free time to dig the reasons of this difference. Ill just add that in my humble understanding / simulations / experiments, things are a bit complicated by the properties of coils: they're not only series resistors but also inductors with a stray capacitance to ground (stray capacitance acting like some "invisible" low value capacitors in parallel with the coils). A series cap won't have exactly the same behaviour "before" and "after"' such complex filters...

Not sure my explanation is understandable. LOL. At least I've tried to share. :-)


Below is a sim of the dual resonant peak created by HOOP. One line involves the series cap "before" the 2d single coil. The other line involves the same series cap wired "after" the 2d pickup.FWIW.

there should be absolutely NO difference in the simulations between a cap before or after the pickup/inductor.

please add a screenshot of your simulated circuit. that looks VERY wrong!
i think your Equivalent circuit is wrong. i suspect you connected the "stray Cap" to ground instead to negative port of the source.
that makes a difference if you add the cap in series on the "bottom path" but brings the right result if you add it on "top"

Also, there shouldn't be a 2nd resonant peak in the 20 to 20k freq range.
adding a logarithmic x axis wouldn't hurt, also.


maybe in real live the cap in between the 2 coils may be different than the cap before or after, that might very well be, because the fields of the two coils interact with each other which cannot be simulated easily. but a cap before or after shouldn't matter at all!

[beaubrummels]

I still stand by my try it suggestion. All other arguments will become pretty moot after an actual physical test. The point of all these wiring options is a sonic result, which one can only truly assess by doing it.

[freefrog]

there should be absolutely NO difference in the simulations between a cap before or after the pickup/inductor.

please add a screenshot of your simulated circuit. that looks VERY wrong!
i think your Equivalent circuit is wrong. i suspect you connected the "stray Cap" to ground instead to negative port of the source.
that makes a difference if you add the cap in series on the "bottom path" but brings the right result if you add it on "top"

Well...

1)if the screenshot above comes from me, the model used to generate it is born from a collaborative work. So, I've absolutely NO intention to reveal it.

2)"my" screenshot is simply the simulated equivalent of real world measurements done here and showing EXACTLY the same thing.

Also, there shouldn't be a 2nd resonant peak in the 20 to 20k freq range.
adding a logarithmic x axis wouldn't hurt, also.


maybe in real live the cap in between the 2 coils may be different than the cap before or after, that might very well be, because the fields of the two coils interact with each other which cannot be simulated easily. but a cap before or after shouldn't matter at all!

1) The reason why there's two resonant peaks is that the two pickups are HALF OUT OF PHASE.

2)The interaction that you evoke appears to presuppose that you're talking about a humbucker. My screenshot was about a bridge single coil HOOP with a neck single coil.

[ToneFiddler]

ah ok your're talking about two pickups! then i take it back and the 2 resonant peaks are fine.
i only apply the high pass to the neck pickup only, so sorry for my narrow view...

[freefrog]

Actually, I'm curious to know which sequence resulted in the lower amplitude?

The (so slightly) highest amplitude is with the cap between ground and HOOP pickup. ;-)

[ArtieToo]

Artie,

Would it be possible for you to explain a little, about the prime factor(s) that determine which wiring scenarios that the order of components does matter, and which wiring scenarios where the order of components does not matter?

Sorry Jack. Got caught up in other things. I'm going to do the "simple" explanation just now. With AC, all the current, (electrons), run in one direction for one half of the electrical cycle. Then, they turn around and go the other direction for the other half of the cycle. So it doesn't matter which component they hit 1st when going one direction. They're going to hit the "other" order when they come back. Since a guitar doesn't have an absolute polarity, it doesn't matter which comes first.

It actually doesn't matter on a tone control either. I was being TOO succinct.

[SoPhx]

Want out of phase? Plug into both channels of a Fender amp with reverb. Or use an EQ pedal to pull out bass and low mids. Works just fine. No guitar mods necessary.