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  • ALTERNATIVE WIRING FOR PARTIAL COIL CUT. THEORY InPUT APPRECIATED

    .
    Have been experimenting for some time with the re wiring one of my favourite 2 vol 2 tone mahogany/maple arch tops. It has 4 CTS push pulls which now give Artie's coil swap , partial coil cut for each pup and a combined Series/OOPs. Have now found a wiring I like but would be interested to learn what is happening theory wise.re the partial coil cut.

    My trial and error experiments have been primarily with the partial coil cuts to get a slightly better (different?)sound than either standard parallel or a straight coil cut. Experiments comparing sounds after adjustments with a single guitar are always a bit hit or miss relying on ear memory but I think I am getting to where I want to be.

    I have found that I prefer the sound of partial coil cuts so that the by bypass filter works only on one coil when the pup is wired in parallel. See extract of my schematic. For simplicity PPs are shown as standard as opposed to convoluted CTS wiring. This wiring I think also gives improved sounds when both the coil swap and partial cut are engaged. Also I think I can hear a slightly sweeter sound iwith a small 0.05 cap added in series to the resistor.

    I am at the moment using 500k pots( cheap imports I had lying around) as resistors to find a value I like . Current favourite values seem to be around 375 ohm for the bridge and 210 for the neck. Single resistors of similar values will eventually be fitted to neaten things up under the hood.

    My electrical theory is very limited and I would be interested to learn from some one more knowledgeable what is the difference in terms of current flow of wiring a partial coil cut as normal (as in fig 1) or of how I have wired it (fig 2) . Also what is it that happens to the “frequency filter” when you wire a small cap in series with a resistor as I have done. I was intrigued out of curiosity to try resistor and cap in parallel as per the de mud mod but never got around to it. If anybody can tell me the likely result in a partial ciol cut situation it would be appreciated.

    Click image for larger version

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  • #2
    Hi Gstring,

    The concept of a applying a cap and resistor to the series link between 2 coils of a humbucker is also employed by this modified pot made by PMT, available for sale on the guitarelectronics.com website. I have one of these pots on-hand and hoping to install it soon, just have not had the chance. In the case of this PMT product, the pup remains wired in series. Ref: https://guitarelectronics.com/hcp-pa...-coil-filters/

    A couple months ago I started a thread in this forum asking if anyone had experience with this product but it didn't get any responses, from what I recall.

    Am I understanding your "coil-swap" push-pull correctly, that it looks like you are pairing up one coil from the bridge pickup with one coil from the neck pickup?
    Originally posted by GuitarDoc
    Good diagram Shadowfire90, but it isn't what the OP wants.
    Originally posted by Sanford
    The hardest part about tone chasing is losing the expectations associated with the hardware.
    Originally posted by blueman335
    I've been slammed here a few times myself for not going with the crowd. I'd rather go in a different direction, and know why, then follow everyone else and not know why.

    Comment


    • #3
      You mentioned series/OoP earlier. If that means putting one pup's coil in series with a coil from the othet pup, please note that that PMT HCP product that i mentioned has a common ground, so you would lose the capability to do the In Series option if you used that product.
      Originally posted by GuitarDoc
      Good diagram Shadowfire90, but it isn't what the OP wants.
      Originally posted by Sanford
      The hardest part about tone chasing is losing the expectations associated with the hardware.
      Originally posted by blueman335
      I've been slammed here a few times myself for not going with the crowd. I'd rather go in a different direction, and know why, then follow everyone else and not know why.

      Comment


      • #4
        Gstring,

        The ideal values for the resistors will vary depending on what pickups are being used, driven by the DC resistance spec of the pickups.

        What make and model of pickups are you using?
        Originally posted by GuitarDoc
        Good diagram Shadowfire90, but it isn't what the OP wants.
        Originally posted by Sanford
        The hardest part about tone chasing is losing the expectations associated with the hardware.
        Originally posted by blueman335
        I've been slammed here a few times myself for not going with the crowd. I'd rather go in a different direction, and know why, then follow everyone else and not know why.

        Comment


        • #5
          Hi Jack
          Thanks for your responses

          The pups I am using are Irongear Blues Engine in the neck and a Dirty torque in the bridge. They are excellent pups based on the Tonerider A4 and a JB. . I have actually taken them off another guitar.I had As I stated I think I have already found some pretty good resistor values.for the partial coil cut

          The coil swap was devised by Artie of this forum and puts the slug coil of one pup with the screw coil of the other and gives additional "virtual" humbuckers. Usually in series but as you can see from my diagram, by using a push pull. you can put them also in parallel.althugh in my wiring the screw coil is partially cut due to the bypass.The wiring for the neck pup is of course not shown.


          The series oop wiring is not shown. This puts the neck and bridge pups in series and out of phase. A sound I quite like.and a mod I have installed in many guitars.You are correct that special care needs to be taken regarding the circuit ground.

          As regards the product you mention this seems to be going down the traditional (fig1) idea with an added cap and using a double concentric pot as a variable resistor for the two pups. As I am using 500k pots inside the guitar as my resistors I can obviously also vary the amount of coil cut and this is one of the things I have been experimenting with to find a good usable value.However my idea as you can see is to cut in parallel mode

          I am pretty much all set and good to go with the wiring. Guitar is working and sounding good. Just need to tidy a few things inside. What I was hoping this post would bring was some technical imput on the points raised.
          Last edited by Gstring; 09-23-2020, 01:19 PM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Gstring,

            if you ever post a demo to the web/YouTube/etc of what your scheme (of cap & resistor applied to the seriws link btw two coils of the same pickup connected In Parallel mode) sounds like , i would love to hear it.

            Glad to hear that you like the sound resulting from your innovative scheme.

            I am familiar w Artie's virtual humbucker, which consists of two coils from two different pickups. Artie likes to call it a "slut bucker". Lol
            Originally posted by GuitarDoc
            Good diagram Shadowfire90, but it isn't what the OP wants.
            Originally posted by Sanford
            The hardest part about tone chasing is losing the expectations associated with the hardware.
            Originally posted by blueman335
            I've been slammed here a few times myself for not going with the crowd. I'd rather go in a different direction, and know why, then follow everyone else and not know why.

            Comment


            • #7
              I did once about 10 years ago, try and do a You Tube vid (with another) to demonstrate on both Humbucker and single coil guitars the sound obtainable using a single push pull to get combined Series /OOP .This was a wiring idea I worked out around 16/17 years ago. Although very pleased with my discovery which I have installed on very many guitars, others probably may have worked it out before me so I do not claim to be the originator. Spent quite a bit of time on the vid project but in the end was not happy with the result.. Sadly it would seem my talents as a producer and on screen are somewhat limited and my contribution to the community was not to post..

              Comment


              • #8
                Gstring,

                Given your interest in getting singlecoil type sounds out of humbucker pickups, i wanted to recommend the Half Out Of Phase (HOoP) wiring option to you in case you had not heard of it. HOoP emulates the quack of Position 2 and 4 on a Strat; natural quack being a result of the close proximity of each pup to the other on a Strat - or any guitar w a middle pup. It doesn't replace splitting; It's meant as an additional option, to employ in combination with splitting.

                Let me know if you'd like me to explain further about this wiring option.
                Originally posted by GuitarDoc
                Good diagram Shadowfire90, but it isn't what the OP wants.
                Originally posted by Sanford
                The hardest part about tone chasing is losing the expectations associated with the hardware.
                Originally posted by blueman335
                I've been slammed here a few times myself for not going with the crowd. I'd rather go in a different direction, and know why, then follow everyone else and not know why.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Hi Jack
                  Thanks again for posting

                  Have never had good results with my experiments with HOOP on humbuckers. I tried different cap values..Results a bit too subtle. However I have used this wiring idea extensively on Telecasters.as well as some other single coil guitars

                  I usually fit a standard 5 way and wire it to give both pups inparallel with a 0.05 cap and pups in series for the 2 extra positions. Then if you fit a push pull to give one of the pups an OOP function you can also get full OOP, HOOP and OOP in series. All good stuff.

                  Am a bit disappointed nobody has responded to this thread with some tech import as I originally asked.

                  Although I have quite a bit of experience with re wiring guitars and experimenting with ideas that come to me my theory knowledge is very basic and I always welcome the explanations.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Gstring View Post
                    Hi Jack
                    Thanks again for posting

                    Have never had good results with my experiments with HOOP on humbuckers. I tried different cap values..Results a bit too subtle. However I have used this wiring idea extensively on Telecasters.as well as some other single coil guitars

                    I usually fit a standard 5 way and wire it to give both pups inparallel with a 0.05 cap and pups in series for the 2 extra positions. Then if you fit a push pull to give one of the pups an OOP function you can also get full OOP, HOOP and OOP in series. All good stuff.

                    Am a bit disappointed nobody has responded to this thread with some tech import as I originally asked.

                    Although I have quite a bit of experience with re wiring guitars and experimenting with ideas that come to me my theory knowledge is very basic and I always welcome the explanations.
                    PM Artie, Freefrog, or GuitarDoc and ask them to take a look at this thread. They might have simply missed it.
                    Originally posted by GuitarDoc
                    Good diagram Shadowfire90, but it isn't what the OP wants.
                    Originally posted by Sanford
                    The hardest part about tone chasing is losing the expectations associated with the hardware.
                    Originally posted by blueman335
                    I've been slammed here a few times myself for not going with the crowd. I'd rather go in a different direction, and know why, then follow everyone else and not know why.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Jack_TriPpEr View Post

                      PM Artie, Freefrog, or GuitarDoc and ask them to take a look at this thread. They might have simply missed it.
                      I had seen this topic but...

                      1) old mum has broken one of her legs so I've other kinds or "wiring" and "resoldering" to think about... :-/

                      2) I've simply not understood what Gstring wanted to know...



                      Gstring, here are my thoughts about your OP anyway:

                      In your pic, the schematic "1" shows a series humbucker with a resistor to ground between its coils. I don't see this signal path as a "partial coil cut" since both coils are involved: the resistor just acts like a "common" volume control permanently lowered for both coils. it should just squash the resonant peak of the humbucker of a couple of dB, as if the pickup was paired with lower resistance pots . Lowering a bit the tone control would do largely the same, IMHO / at first glance.

                      The schematic "2" shows the two coils of an humbucker in parallel. The resistor is now limiting the output level for ONE of the two coils only, by a large amount (I'd bet on more than 15dB if your resistor is a 210k one). In this case, yes, it's a "partial coil cut".

                      If you add a cap in series with this resistor, the 2d coil will be fitted with a high pass filter. So, you'll have the 1st coil full up while the 2d one will loose 15dB AND will produce less bass...
                      If you put the series cap in parallel with a 210k between ground and coil 2, the cap will keep acting like a high pass filter for coil 2 BUT the resistor won't influence the volume no more: it should just defeat partly the effect of the cap as a high pass filter...

                      The effect of such choices on the tone would depend on the pickup involved: the stray capacitance of each coil and the coupling between both coils can bring noticeable differences here, IMHO/IME/in my understanding.

                      That's all I can say. FWIW.



                      Back to "real" life with its own convoluted signal paths...
                      Last edited by freefrog; 09-25-2020, 11:47 PM.
                      Duncan user since the 80's...

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by freefrog View Post

                        I had seen this topic but...

                        1) old mum has broken one of her legs so I've other kinds or "wiring" and "resoldering" to think about... :-/

                        2) I've simply not understood what Gstring wanted to know...



                        Gstring, here are my thoughts about your OP anyway:

                        In your pic, the schematic "1" shows a series humbucker with a resistor to ground between its coils. I don't see this signal path as a "partial coil cut" since both coils are involved: the resistor just acts like a "common" volume control permanently lowered for both coils. it should just squash the resonant peak of the humbucker of a couple of dB, as if the pickup was paired with lower resistance pots . Lowering a bit the tone control would do largely the same, IMHO / at first glance.

                        The schematic "2" shows the two coils of an humbucker in parallel. The resistor is now limiting the output level for ONE of the two coils only, by a large amount (I'd bet on more than 15dB if your resistor is a 210k one). In this case, yes, it's a "partial coil cut".

                        If you add a cap in series with this resistor, the 2d coil will be fitted with a high pass filter. So, you'll have the 1st coil full up while the 2d one will loose 15dB AND will produce less bass...
                        If you put the series cap in parallel with a 210k between ground and coil 2, the cap will keep acting like a high pass filter for coil 2 BUT the resistor won't influence the volume no more: it should just defeat partly the effect of the cap as a high pass filter...

                        The effect of such choices on the tone would depend on the pickup involved: the stray capacitance of each coil and the coupling between both coils can bring noticeable differences here, IMHO/IME/in my understanding.

                        That's all I can say. FWIW.



                        Back to "real" life with its own convoluted signal paths...
                        Freefrog: sorry to hear about your mom. I hope she has a speedy recovery
                        Originally posted by GuitarDoc
                        Good diagram Shadowfire90, but it isn't what the OP wants.
                        Originally posted by Sanford
                        The hardest part about tone chasing is losing the expectations associated with the hardware.
                        Originally posted by blueman335
                        I've been slammed here a few times myself for not going with the crowd. I'd rather go in a different direction, and know why, then follow everyone else and not know why.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Jack_TriPpEr View Post

                          Freefrog: sorry to hear about your mom. I hope she has a speedy recovery
                          Thx, mate. I hope so.

                          Duncan user since the 80's...

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Hi freefrog Am very sorry to learn about your mother.. Sincerely hope all mends well in the end. Should do .These days medical skills and treatment are of a very high standard. My late mother sadly always had strength issues after she broke her arm when in her 60s .However that was 40 years ago.

                            Really appeciate your input. Don't expect a further response from you but will put down my thoughts anyway with a view .to getting some further input from elsewhere.

                            Although you say that Fig 1 is not a partial coilcut, this is how most wiring schematics show and describe it and is the wiring which appears on many PRS guitars. Also you say it is acting like a common volume control for both pups. I don't have the technical ability to disagree and I can see where the theory is coming from (volume pots are after all just resistors) and in fact the resistors I am using (for the moment) are pots. However in practice the sound you get is completely different from when you just turn down the pup's volume control. In my simplistic view the difference is caused by the fact the the pot being used as a resistor has no ground connection like a volume pot and theway it is connected to the two coils. I have no idea as to the proper theory.
                            .
                            From what you say you would think think that a cap alone taking out part of the bass frequencies would be the best way to do this but then it seems you are looking at the de mud mod.

                            Another wiring idea which I liked and came very close to using and may well go back to looking at again.was putting the cap on the other coil (see amended diagram) I actually liked this a lot but was frustrated by some soldering issues I had which may have clouded my judgment. Using your thoughts it seems that what I am doing in that instance is just lowering the volume of one coil and removing some low frequencies from the other.. Would appreciate if somebody can agree or disagree with that.

                            At the end of the day of course experimenting with wiring is all about finding something that in practice appeals to your own ears and the theory is immaterial . However it's sometimes good to know what is actually going on electrically.

                            Click image for larger version  Name:	IMG.jpg Views:	0 Size:	32.5 KB ID:	6019238

                            Last edited by Gstring; 09-26-2020, 03:40 AM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Gstring View Post
                              Hi freefrog Am very sorry to learn about your mother.. Sincerely hope all mends well in the end. Should do .These days medical skills and treatment are of a very high standard. My late mother sadly always had strength issues after she broke her arm when in her 60s .However that was 40 years ago.

                              Really appeciate your input. Don't expect a further response from you but will put down my thoughts anyway with a view .to getting some further input from elsewhere.

                              Although you say that Fig 1 is not a partial coilcut, this is how most wiring schematics show and describe it and is the wiring which appears on many PRS guitars. Also you say it is acting like a common volume control for both pups. I don't have the technical ability to disagree and I can see where the theory is coming from (volume pots are after all just resistors) and in fact the resistors I am using (for the moment) are pots. However in practice the sound you get is completely different from when you just turn down the pup's volume control. In my simplistic view the difference is caused by the fact the the pot being used as a resistor has no ground connection like a volume pot and theway it is connected to the two coils. I have no idea as to the proper theory.
                              Hi Gstring,

                              Thx for your kind words.

                              To answer on a hurry to your sentences above...

                              In you pic "1", the resistor between the coils seems to be going to ground. At least that's what I see / understand in your schematic.
                              IF this resistor is a high resistance one (like 375k or 210k and not 375 Ohm or 210 Ohm), it should react as I said (although I realize now that my previous answer sounds like a brain fart rather than a faithful expression of my thoughts. LOL).
                              IF the same resistor is a LOW resistance one it "almost" connects totally the first coil to ground AND effectively creates a "partial coil cut".
                              [My badly worded reasoning in post 11 was about a high value resistor, lke a 210k one... ].

                              Not enough time for further comments. I just hope my (botched) previous answer to sound less paradoxal now .

                              "More later" if time permits. Thx for you understanding and see ya!


                              Last edited by freefrog; 09-26-2020, 06:24 AM.
                              Duncan user since the 80's...

                              Comment

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