Shielded wire question

[Inflames626]

New project time! Finished the KV3 and RR3 (finally) and the LTD Explorer with the EMG HZs I've talked about lately.

Moving on to an LTD EC-256, one of their set necks that is between an EC-10 and an EC-1000. I got the EC-256 because it is passive and I wanted to put an AP2N/Custom 5 in it. This one, as usual, has two Triple Shots and a phase switch but no kill switch as I save those for my Floyded guitars that do leads while my fixed bridges are for rhythm.

I haven't wired many LP style guitars up before but I need to know how to do it as I have several Kramer Assaults lying around needing to be worked on.

I'm realizing I'm hating the LP design mainly because of the location of the switch. It is so far away from the other controls and the wiring runs are so long. It looks cool where it is but when you're used to small electronics cavities an LP switch is a total pain. And you have to remove the pickups to finesse the switch wires down to the control cavity.

I gutted all the existing wiring because I wanted independent volume knobs with a phase switch on the neck pickup and the tone knob at the back. The original setup I think was bridge, neck, tone, and I wanted neck, bridge, tone. Plus the original ESP Designed pickups were wired to split from the tone knob. I decided to reuse that push pull for the neck pickup phase switch.

One thing led to another and eventually all the existing wiring was gone.

I went with shielded wire because I'm pretty sure that's what ESP was using--color coded wires with a hot center wire and a steel wool like shield around it that is pulled away and soldered to the body of pots, all enclosed in a plastic casing. I followed this process with my own shielded wire.

Once I got everything hooked up, there was no sound. I suspect it is the switch. I have a new one on the way, but until then I want to make sure I'm not killing my sound by accident by using the shielded wire incorrectly.

I have used Gibson style shielded wire before when I wired up a Hamer Scarab with a Gibson 57 Classic Plus/498t. So I can do it. But I only have experience with shielded wire coming from a pickup and not throughout a guitar circuit.

Doing it with pickups was fairly easy. Solder the braided wire to the pot casing and make sure it doesn't touch the hot wire and short out the signal. Not a problem.

My issue is I'm not sure if I need to ground the wire multiple times when going long distances.

As an example, I have three wires coming from an import style box switch. All three have their shield mesh intertwined and soldered to the ground lug of the switch.

The center switch wire runs to the tone pot where it meets the hot wire from the jack, per Seymour Duncan's diagram.

At the tone pot, I have the shielding mesh pulled well away from the signal wire in an L shape and soldered to the tone pot casing. On that same casing, I have the ground coming from the jack soldered to the same location. The bridge ground also goes to the tone pot. Eventually, every ground will go to the tone pot where the jack ground is soldered.

At the jack, I have a similar L shape thing going, where the hot wire gets the hot lug and the mesh shield gets the ground sleeve.

The wire I am using is a Stew Mac shielded wire that has the hot wire surrounded by a thin plastic tube. I am making sure the shield and hot wires don't come in contact whenever they attach to pots.

Just to make sure I am grounding things properly, I am running unshielded cloth wire between the neck, bridge, and tone pots to make sure they ground back to the jack.

I have tried Googling this before asking the question here. Some people say not to ground the wire at both the start and ending location. Others just say to ground it once.

***So to sum up my question: will grounding shielded wire at multiple points kill the sound? My guess is no but I want to make sure.***

I'm aware that there's debate about ground loops in a passive guitar but my understanding is this can't happen because all grounds terminate in one place: the jack.

I think my problem is the switch. I have checked the Triple Shots in all positions with a multimeter and all pickups are showing close to factory spec resistance readings. The next step in the chain would be the switch.

Thanks again. Sorry for the length but I felt you needed context.

[beaubrummels]

***So to sum up my question: will grounding shielded wire at multiple points kill the sound? My guess is no but I want to make sure.***

No

I'm aware that there's debate about ground loops in a passive guitar but my understanding is this can't happen because all grounds terminate in one place: the jack.

Correct

[Inflames626]

It would probably help to have the diagram:

[ArtieToo]

No . . . . Correct . . .

Ditto, and ditto. There are no ground loops in an electric guitar. Ground loops are a phenomenon of distant grounds in high powered circuits. The "power" in a guitar is a few micro watts, (that's millionth's of a watt), separated by a few inches. You're pretty free to ground however you want within a guitar cavity.

[hamerfan]

Like Beau and Artie said, but some good pics tell more than a longish tale. Just sayin

[Securb]

I think you are on the right track check the switch with the multimeter to eliminate a faulty switch from the equation.

[ThreeChordWonder]

Although some don't believe me, I have found that with independent volumes, a direct ground between the two volume pots kills the sound. I have yet to sit down, draw out the circuit diagram and figure out why, but experience with two or three guitars tells me it does.

Instead, ground each volume pot casing back to its respective tone pot casing. Then ground the tone pots to each other and back to the one common ground on the output jack. Don't forget the bridge ground and any body ground. Pickup grounds should be wired as your circuit diagram demands, but make sure the bare wires always go directly to ground, never via a pot or switch.

Whether it matters or not, just try removing any direct volume pot to volume pot ground. If I'm right and it cures your problem, job done, who really cares why. If I'm wrong all you've done is remove a superfluous ground wire.

[GuitarDoc]

Although some don't believe me, I have found that with independent volumes, a direct ground between the two volume pots kills the sound. I have yet to sit down, draw out the circuit diagram and figure out why, but experience with two or three guitars tells me it does.

Instead, ground each volume pot casing back to its respective tone pot casing. Then ground the tone pots to each other and back to the one common ground on the output jack. Don't forget the bridge ground and any body ground. Pickup grounds should be wired as your circuit diagram demands, but make sure the bare wires always go directly to ground, never via a pot or switch.

Whether it matters or not, just try removing any direct volume pot to volume pot ground. If I'm right and it cures your problem, job done, who really cares why. If I'm wrong all you've done is remove a superfluous ground wire.

Oh don't get on this again!!

You are simply wrong...do doubt about it, no question, no need for any debate or even any reply. Accept it and move on!

And if you can't admit to yourself that you are wrong, at least keep this misleading and totally incorrect "info" to yourself.

[ArtieToo]

There's a dirt simple experiment anyone can perform to answer this question for themselves. On any 4-knob style guitar, connect your pot grounds V-T-T-V. Make sure everything works and that there's no hum. Now solder a jumper across the two volume pots. If there wasn't any hum or noise before, there won't be any now. If there is, then the laws of physics and electricity bend in your neighborhood.

[beaubrummels]

Although some don't believe me, I have found that with independent volumes, a direct ground between the two volume pots kills the sound. I have yet to sit down, draw out the circuit diagram and figure out why, but experience with two or three guitars tells me it does.

Instead, ground each volume pot casing back to its respective tone pot casing. Then ground the tone pots to each other and back to the one common ground on the output jack. Don't forget the bridge ground and any body ground. Pickup grounds should be wired as your circuit diagram demands, but make sure the bare wires always go directly to ground, never via a pot or switch.

Whether it matters or not, just try removing any direct volume pot to volume pot ground. If I'm right and it cures your problem, job done, who really cares why. If I'm wrong all you've done is remove a superfluous ground wire.

I'm not seeing how grounding across both tone pots is different than grounding across both volume pots. Seems electronically equivalent, and still separate from the positive/audio signal path in both cases. To kill the sound, you would have to bridge the hot to ground somehow.

[Inflames626]

Like Beau and Artie said, but some good pics tell more than a longish tale. Just sayin

I have a flip phone. The pics would not help.

[Inflames626]

Although some don't believe me, I have found that with independent volumes, a direct ground between the two volume pots kills the sound. I have yet to sit down, draw out the circuit diagram and figure out why, but experience with two or three guitars tells me it does.

Instead, ground each volume pot casing back to its respective tone pot casing. Then ground the tone pots to each other and back to the one common ground on the output jack. Don't forget the bridge ground and any body ground. Pickup grounds should be wired as your circuit diagram demands, but make sure the bare wires always go directly to ground, never via a pot or switch.

Whether it matters or not, just try removing any direct volume pot to volume pot ground. If I'm right and it cures your problem, job done, who really cares why. If I'm wrong all you've done is remove a superfluous ground wire.

Things like this are why I tend to overthink grounding and the way it is done. Now I just try to focus on everything going back to one point, mainly whatever is closest to jack ground, which in today's case is the tone pot. Sometimes I'd overthink about whether everything should ground to everything in sequence, or if it is fine if everything is not grounded to everything else as long as they all make it back to the jack ground.

I've had times where the pickup ground and negative wire were soldered to the casing like in the diagram. The grounding tab had a wire through it going to the casing. No sound. I move the negative and ground to the ground lug itself and then it works even though everything was connected to the same place in both situations.

Then I started thinking of fancy shortcuts. Maybe a shielded wire that goes the longest distance (from jack to switch) but with sections of plastic insulation cut out along the way where it will ground each pot in sequence. I have not only a wire stripper but also a crafting razor with a slanted blade that takes off insulation quite well if you move it parallel to the wire.

I really disliked the factory wire. Gray, blue, and yellow I think. I removed it because I thought perhaps there was a break inside the jack wire insulation. I hadn't touched the factory jack solder joints but whenever I would compress the wire down into the cavity the signal would cut out. So I thought something was broken in the wire.

As far as Triple Shots I am using them on everything now. Wiring up the little circuit board is easy and only having three wires is easier for me to work with than four plus ground.

Also, I am probably burning up the switch because I am using a pointed tip. I still prefer it for guitar work, especially for DPDT lugs, because I can do it without burning up everything around it like I would with a chisel tip. It's also ideal for the Triple Shot connector.

The problem is and as GuitarDoc has noted is I have to hold the pointed tip on the work surface longer. This is probably how I burned up the switch.

At the same time I've used a 60 watt vs. 40 watt iron pointed tip and never burned up a pot. Import box switches just seem really fragile, especially when soldering to their center contact and ground lug.

I will probably keep a pointed tip, 60 watt, for most work, as it can take a while with a 40 watt for enough heat to build up and a good solder joint to set in. But maybe if I use a 60 I won't have to just hold and hold and wait. I'm guessing a lot of heat for a second or two is better than moderate heat for a long period of time.

Or I could keep the 40 and move between a chisel and pointed tip as needed.

Main thing is the chisel tip only 40 watt tradition doesn't work for me and I've found 60 with a pointed tip much easier to make good solder joints.

[Securb]

I'm not seeing how grounding across both tone pots is different than grounding across both volume pots. Seems electronically equivalent, and still separate from the positive/audio signal path in both cases. To kill the sound, you would have to bridge the hot to ground somehow.

I ground all of the pots as a practice. I never run into problems.

[ArtieToo]

I will probably keep a pointed tip, 60 watt, for most work, as it can take a while with a 40 watt for enough heat to build up and a good solder joint to set in. But maybe if I use a 60 I won't have to just hold and hold and wait. I'm guessing a lot of heat for a second or two is better than moderate heat for a long period of time.

Be sure you always "wet" the tip of your iron with solder before each connection. That is, touch the solder to the end of the iron to make a little blob of solder. If not, you won't transfer the heat.

I've occasionally soldered grounds to the back of a pot with a 15 watt Weller with no problem.

Also, going back to the "ground loop" issue, consider this: I'll use my old Denon integrated stereo amp as an example. It produces, internally, 160 watts. That's approximately 40 million times more power than what's inside a guitar cavity. All the circuit boards have a ground pad that's connected to the chassis (ground) in one corner. (Of the circuit board.) So, in a far more high power environment, you have multiple grounds that are separated by distances far greater than inside a guitar cavity. And they suffer no internal ground loops. No hum or noise. Even in cheap amps/receivers.

[Inflames626]

Thanks ArtieToo . Like Aceman you always seem to be full of good info. And Denon. Wow I haven't heard that name in a while. Right up there with Montgomery Ward and Otasco.

I like it that you like Peavey stuff too. Growing up in the Memphis area that was what I saw in stores. Marshall and Mesa stuff was for the rich coastal elites.

I usually keep my tip pretty clean and wet. I use a block of sal ammoniac to keep the build up off. Usually I worry a bit about adding on too much solder and creating big blobs. If I don't add fresh solder, I get a matte finish joint or I sit there forever to heat the thing up before something happens. If I do add fresh solder it can often accumulate with whatever is there and make a mess. If you guys saw the back of my pots you would laugh me off the planet with the unnecessary accumulated solder.

I'll probably keep a big chisel for pots and then use the pencil tip most of the time.

I think I even used a slanted one designed for drag soldering and it worked well in a pinch for DPDTs.

Once that stuff is on there though--say a reinstallation--it's hard for me to clean up whether it be with a solder sucker or solder wick. Usually I have to heat the solder, take something like a razor blade from an X-acto knife, poke a hole through the wet solder where the lug hole is, and rethread the wire.

Something like a DPDT eyelet is a one time thing. I've found it's best for me to thread wires through those without tinning them, then tin them, because the holes are so small. But if they are done that way they stay. Also I've found it's good to leave an inch or so of exposed conductor wire as a kind of strain relief to take pressure off those small connections.