Just got a Duncan Distortion for the first time

[Inflames626]

I like the Distortion but it sizzles too much. Much prefer the Parallel Axis Original Trembucker, Full Shred, or EMG 81 in 24 volts.

When I do use the Distortion, it is for solos. It's the natural place for those scratchy, nasally, ice picky highs come through.

I like the basic character of the tone. Just like something smoother while remaining bright.

I found that the Alternative 8 had the same basic problem. Really scratchy, even backed down. Don't need that from a pickup when I have infinite preamp gain.

All that distortion from the pickup does compress and cut through, though. Usually very mild compression settings at the desk will get me where I want when mixing solos with that pickup.

[Aceman]

Congrats on the Distortion. No need to mess around with all these fu fu lightweight variations. Put in in, turn it on, turn up the bass, and get your chunk on!

[Inflames626]

Most pickup names are pretty lame if you take a step back and think about it.

Omega is the end. Armageddon. It should get brutality.

What's more brutal? When something is born? Or when it dies?

[Inflames626]

It's dark sounding guitar stock. Maybe from mahogany body. Has no name fender passives vs the sig jim root with emg 60/81.
so u think nazgul be a good option?
Will it still do old school Metallica or is it too modern? To me best sound is 1st garage days Metallica for tone. Breadfan/the prince. this more black winter/distortion?
Listening to some comparisons the custom custom sounds good too but is it too low output?

Re: First Garage Days

At the time I'm pretty sure James was using a Gibson Dirty Fingers and Kirk was using Seymour Duncan Invaders. The Invader to me is very dark and exactly the opposite of what a bright, articulate lead pickup should be. Some people can dial it in great but I never liked it.

What you are hearing on that recording is probably James's Mesa Mark IIC+ "Crunch Berries" head. Although Metallica is known for using Rectifiers, back in the day they used the Mark series. I have always considered the Mark to be the upper mids crunch and the Recto to be the thump--a mix Devin Townsend used well in SYL.

I prefer a medium output pickup dialed in carefully to a high gain amp with a pedal up front doing most of the saturation. The settings shouldn't be too extreme. Just enough to give the amp head and pickup additional oomph.

Some of my best tones have been done with EMG HZ1s, HZ3s, and HZ4s and those pickups are considering anemic by many in terms of output. However, they sit in a mix well and you can distort them and they retain clarity.

Remember, you can always dial back an amp, but it's hard to clean up a overly hot pickup short of backing it into the guitar body more.

For an example of why I prefer a Distortion for solos only, you can hear it here in my Jackson DK2S in this Judas Priest cover. Most of the rhythm guitar you can hear is an EMG HZ4. The rhythm guitar you can't hear is a Seymour Duncan JB filling things out but not really standing out.

Amps were Amplitube 4 I think: Marshall JMP 1 for the JB and a Fender Pro Sonic (yes, a Fender for distortion--played the real thing and loved it) for the EMG HZ4.

Solo was a Sansamp I think with a Bogner Uberschall cab.

Generally, I like doing things more in post. There's less "baked in" than with a pickup. If I find the console settings for this (I took a screen capture of it I liked the solo tone so much I wanted to use it for other projects), I will post it here.

https://soundcloud.com/devolve1980/b...ealms-of-death

[Inflames626]

Re: the Custom line.

The entire Custom line is like the Distortion dialed back on the fizz. I think all the Customs, and indeed most "overwound PAFs" or "PAF inspired" pickups made by most manufacturers are best used to track rhythms.

Instead we have gotten used to using the hottest output pickups possible--meant for soloists--and track rhythms with those.

You lost some grit and high end with the Customs, as well as the EMG HZ1/HZ1A, but what remains is much clearer while retaining chunk and power.

Think of a Distortion type pickup like a 5150 amp head with all its fuzzy gain, and think of a Custom as like a Dual Rec slightly scooped on a conservative gain setting.

[80's_Thrash_Metal]

The Distortion is the best pickup ever made!

I'm a huge fanboi in case anyone didn't know that.

They live in about 90% of all my guitars.

They just sound just right!

[Rex_Rocker]

I think the Customs are just voiced differently. I wouldn't say less fizzy, but certainly more beefy, yeah. But at the same time beefy (to me) is the opposite of tight in a pickup. So you've got that to consider as well.

Everyone has their opinion, of course, but I feel the Customs get along better with Marshall-types and tighter-sounding amps and are more of a Thrash-y pickup. I know Gary Holt uses one with his modded Marshalls, ENGLs, and his Peavey XXX.

[eclecticsynergy]

I thought I read in an old post somewhere on here that the Distortion is just a JB with a ceramic magnet. Fact or fiction?

People argue all the time. Some say yes. Some say no. IMO, even with different magnets, you can tell they're similar. If they're not the exact same coils, then at least, they're very close, and that's hard to dispute.

I don't remember if it's been "officially" confirmed. But at the very least, it's not as vox populi as the Custom family.

They are similar in DCR but the winds are a bit different. This was confirmed years ago by a former Duncan employee who knows what he's talking about.
Yet the belief persists. Once misinformation is out there, it becomes impossible for the truth to supplant it completely.
Of course the fact that they're so similar makes it easier to believe.

[eclecticsynergy]

My only high output guitar is a '77 Greco LP Custom with the Mayhem set. I love 'em.
That guitar needs different amp & pedal settings than my others so it isn't in regular rotation.
But when I pull it out for a specific project, it always puts a smile on my face.

[Lykoff]

Re: First Garage Days

At the time I'm pretty sure James was using a Gibson Dirty Fingers and Kirk was using Seymour Duncan Invaders. The Invader to me is very dark and exactly the opposite of what a bright, articulate lead pickup should be. Some people can dial it in great but I never liked it.

What you are hearing on that recording is probably James's Mesa Mark IIC+ "Crunch Berries" head. Although Metallica is known for using Rectifiers, back in the day they used the Mark series. I have always considered the Mark to be the upper mids crunch and the Recto to be the thump--a mix Devin Townsend used well in SYL.

I prefer a medium output pickup dialed in carefully to a high gain amp with a pedal up front doing most of the saturation. The settings shouldn't be too extreme. Just enough to give the amp head and pickup additional oomph.

Some of my best tones have been done with EMG HZ1s, HZ3s, and HZ4s and those pickups are considering anemic by many in terms of output. However, they sit in a mix well and you can distort them and they retain clarity.

Remember, you can always dial back an amp, but it's hard to clean up a overly hot pickup short of backing it into the guitar body more.

For an example of why I prefer a Distortion for solos only, you can hear it here in my Jackson DK2S in this Judas Priest cover. Most of the rhythm guitar you can hear is an EMG HZ4. The rhythm guitar you can't hear is a Seymour Duncan JB filling things out but not really standing out.

Amps were Amplitube 4 I think: Marshall JMP 1 for the JB and a Fender Pro Sonic (yes, a Fender for distortion--played the real thing and loved it) for the EMG HZ4.

Solo was a Sansamp I think with a Bogner Uberschall cab.

Generally, I like doing things more in post. There's less "baked in" than with a pickup. If I find the console settings for this (I took a screen capture of it I liked the solo tone so much I wanted to use it for other projects), I will post it here.

https://soundcloud.com/devolve1980/b...ealms-of-death

If u are telling me the EMG HZ h4 is a good choice that is definitely a option because visually it will match up with the bridge pickup already in my jim root squier.(looks like covered active). U think thats a better option than distortion/jb/black winter.
i know a lot of the tone is from mark 2c+ but that is almost unobtainable head. I want that alive, full tone but not all the fizz. The 5150s have that alive tone but also the fizz. Trying to keep the alive thump but less fizz.Running iconic 5150 green channel with ts9 though mesa oversized 4×12. No mics. Just want that full alive in the room tone like garage days. I know it's not tight but it's not fubb either. The mesa 4×12 definitely dropped the fizz and darkened the the tone but now it needs something that these stock pickups aren't giving. I also have a ibanez with emg 81s. But mostly play the jim root tele. The way it's dialed in with the tele if I plug the emg81 guitar in and don't change any settings the 81 actually sounds lifeless moore gain but not tone. But I know it's cause it's dialed into the tele. I don't want to deal with the battery crap either. I know on lower gain amp the 81 makes a huge difference but if u have enough gain on amp not so much.
I have to say too. Volbeat shotgun blues is a incredible tone. Its crazy. I think i want tight but thats not tight

[Demanic]

Congrats on the Distortion. No need to mess around with all these fu fu lightweight variations. Put in in, turn it on, turn up the bass, and get your chunk on!

I agree. This was done with a Mayhem set in my otherwise stock Ibanez RG-120, several years ago. Through a Carvin XV-12 Combo.

Love the Distortion, especially in a screw on neck with a light body.

[Inflames626]

If u are telling me the EMG HZ h4 is a good choice that is definitely a option because visually it will match up with the bridge pickup already in my jim root squier.(looks like covered active). U think thats a better option than distortion/jb/black winter.
i know a lot of the tone is from mark 2c+ but that is almost unobtainable head. I want that alive, full tone but not all the fizz. The 5150s have that alive tone but also the fizz. Trying to keep the alive thump but less fizz.Running iconic 5150 green channel with ts9 though mesa oversized 4×12. No mics. Just want that full alive in the room tone like garage days. I know it's not tight but it's not fubb either. The mesa 4×12 definitely dropped the fizz and darkened the the tone but now it needs something that these stock pickups aren't giving. I also have a ibanez with emg 81s. But mostly play the jim root tele. The way it's dialed in with the tele if I plug the emg81 guitar in and don't change any settings the 81 actually sounds lifeless moore gain but not tone. But I know it's cause it's dialed into the tele. I don't want to deal with the battery crap either. I know on lower gain amp the 81 makes a huge difference but if u have enough gain on amp not so much.
I have to say too. Volbeat shotgun blues is a incredible tone. Its crazy. I think i want tight but thats not tight

I feel like you want a lot of different tones at once, some of which are contradictory, and you may not be able to put it into words but you know it when you hear it. I know the feeling.

The "fizz" as you call it will come from high output ceramic pickups and certain kinds of preamps. "Fizz" is why I stay away from the Distortion and similar pickups, at least for rhythms. That "fizz" (or sizzle, as I think of it) is great for solos though, in my experience. I think of that aspect of tone as being like the presence knob on an amp.

If there's anything I'd like you to take away from this post, it's that ***a heavy sound isn't always about how high output a pickup is.***

Additionally, most metal guys will tell you to only use as much gain as you absolutely have to have. Going over the top with it makes it sound like black metal--fizzy, harsh, and thin.

You are going to have to think about 5 parts of your signal chain:

1) Your pickup

2) Your pedal you use to boost (if any)

3) Your preamp distortion (tends to produce distortion/saturation/fizz)

4) Your power amp distortion (tends to produce breakup like a clean signal pushed very loud)

5) Your impulse responses/speakers/cabinet/mic placement location on cab (these affect tone to a huge degree but are often overlooked--you won't have to work so hard to get the sound you want earlier in the signal chain if you have the right speaker/mic/cab).

Changing the settings on one of these will affect the relationship between all the others.

You will also have to think about:

What exactly IS output/gain to you? Is it loudness? Is it distortion? Is it fizz?

I consider output to be how much a pickup breaks up a clean signal in combination with that pickup's perceived loudness.

But that's not the whole story. How a pickup is voiced/EQ'ed will make it *seem* to be higher output than it is.

EMGs are this way. This is because the lows and highs are rolled off, only letting the most audible part of the sound through (about 2khz-2.5khz), making the pickup seem like it is cutting through when it is actually just a very narrow frequency. The battery in an EMG (or in my case batteries because I use the 24 Volt Mod) doesn't give the pickup more power/output. It powers the preamp that gives EMGs their characteristic upper mid heavy tone.

Meanwhile, if you look at an input meter on a DAW, my EMG 81s are about 6 db less in output than my Seymour Duncan Distortion.

All that being said:

1) I have not tried Black Winters. I have tried the Distortion. The EMG HZ4 will sound weak, low powered, and quiet compared to a Distortion. The HZ4 will also sound much cleaner, less harsh, and less fizzy, with more of an emphasis on upper mid range than highs and lows.

The HZ4 and Distortion will have a much tighter low end than the JB. The JB will be much louder and break up the signal more than the HZ4. The JB will be warmer and less fizzy than the Distortion.

So from least fizz to most fizz it is: EMG HZ4, JB, Distortion.

2) In the Volbeat tune, you also have to think about how the bass is in the mix and how this adds thickness to the guitar. You will not have that kind of chug without a bass under you.

3) With Seymour Duncans, I recommend the Custom line for the Volbeat sound. These are high output but have less fizz than the Distortion. They are much more even and balanced. The regular Custom will have a tighter low end. The Custom 5 will be scooped in the mids and have a warmer sound. I would try the Custom first and, if it does not sound like it has enough low end, try the Custom 5.

4) The Volbeat tune sounds like a Mesa Boogie Dual Rectifier with the mids scooped in places. I would recommend the Custom 5 for that sound.

5) Devin Townsend/Strapping Young Lad used a Dual Rectifier/Mark IV combination. Here is "Detox" from 1997's "City." He also used EMG 81s. It sounds similar to the Volbeat to me but has a little more fizz, probably made by the Mark IV. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3f20L0msLsM

Devin shows his rig from the early-mid 00s here: https://youtu.be/L0Mt1NaniOU?t=115

The higher output ceramic pickups you use, the more fizz you will get.

Death's 1991 album "Human" is a classic example. They used DiMarzio X2Ns, still DiMarzio's highest output pickup (and ceramic), with Marshall Valvestate amps.

The result compared to the Volbeat is much more distortion, more fizz, more mids, and the mids that are scooped are in a slightly different place than the Volbeat.

You can hear that sound here:

https://youtu.be/7j8vUbMmOwM

I like both sounds. But if you push the pickup output and amp gain, you will end up with a black metal sound like Dimmu Borgir. This sound is what I think the Blackout AHB2s and maybe the Black Winters are after:

https://youtu.be/1Os7ohgtDLE

Try a slightly lower output pickup like in the Custom line. You will have more clarity, and any distortion you lose you can make up for with the pedal/amp/speakers/cab/mic placement.

As an example, in software anyway, a Marshall GT75 will produce a much brighter sound for me than a Vintage 30. On axis dynamic mics produce a brighter sound than off axis mics, etc.

Conclusion: it's about more than pickup output.

[Inflames626]

As far as why I prefer the Parallel Axis Original over the Distortion now: same overall bright tone, more clarity, less fizz. Don't need the fizz. Amps are higher gain now than they were in the 1970s when the Distortion was designed.

This guy has the tone down:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5www9wR1Hc8

Edit: this is the PATB2 Distortion model, not the Original. The Original video I am looking for must not be on YouTube anymore because Seymour Duncan is no longer linked to it on the Parallel Axis Original page.

But even the Parallel Axis Distortion has a bright sound with extreme clarity and definition. I think it is better than the Duncan Distortion in every way if one seeks clarity and high gain. But if you want a deliberately harsh distorted sound for more aggression, then the Distortion is the way to go.

[Rex_Rocker]

I agree with the H4 being an option, especially since you can find those for cheap since many people don't like them. I think that's becuase they are misunderstood rather than bad, really.

My one gripe (and most people's) with the H4, H4A, and H3 is they market them as the passive "equivalents" of the active 81, 85, and 60 respectively, when in reality, I don't find that to be the case whatsoever. They do (loosely) have the EMG vibe, but at the same time, they're also fatter and much lower output than the active counterparts. I gues that's to be expected, but in reality, the active classic 81 in particular is not THAT hot even by hot passive standards. If I were to say, I'd probably say the 81 is hotter than the Duncan JB, but not as hot as the Duncan Distortion. I've found MANY passives that drive the amp harder than the 81.

My point is you would probably expect the HZ series to be high output monsters, when in reality, they're not. They're more like laid-back mid output warm but articulate pickups. But that doesn't make them bad pickups at all. They're just not everybody's first choice in that realm, but they're actually pretty solid *if you know what to expect and how to shape them to your liking*. I mean, these days, mid output pickups are kinda catching on.

That being said... I still prefer the Distortion, LOL. But for some variety, I do think the HZ pickups are pretty misunderstood and, hence, underrated. I wouldn't pay full retail for a set, but gladly buy a couple for cheap if I found them. And they're not hard to find either because not many people actually understand what they really are.

[Rex_Rocker]

I actually had an H4 (and an H4A at one point as well) in the neck position of a PRS SE matched with a Black Winter in the bridge. It was a cool combo excep for the fact that the HZ's were a bit too low output compared to the BW.