Blues theory questions...

[Pierre]

Let's take a standard I IV V Blues progression. We have E, A and B or E7 A7 and B7. So all the chords are essentially major chords with a b7. Technically that's Mixolydian territory isn't it?

So why is it that the MINOR Pentatonic fits so well over:
1) a progression without a third (i.e neither minor nor major no?)
2) a progression where all the chords are major?)

For instance in the E minor penta you have a G, in the E major chord you have a G#, but I never really noticed any clash.

Where does this ambiguity come from and what's the theory behind all this? I'm not a big theory reader so I honestly got no idea...

[TimmyPage]

Re: Blues theory questions...

Well.. without a third it's essentially a neutral chord. You could play major or minor over it, there's no third telling you whether it's major or minor so it's up to your solo/melody to decide that.

The second one there, our ears are very used to it, that's why. We've been raised on music with major progressions and minor pentatonic solos, so the clashing is something that sounds natural to our ears.

[Pierre]

Re: Blues theory questions...

Good point. I've tried using the major Penta over a standard Blues progression and it just doesn't fit. I ONLY play by ear and melody (don't know enough theory to care for the background chords) and the major pentatonic just doesn't work at all for that it seems.

[Marinblues]

Re: Blues theory questions...

The "3rd" together with the "flat 5th" are the "bluesy" notes . I have this theory that the true blues "3rd" is somewhere between the major and minor "3rd". Try bending the minor 3rd just a little bit (1/4 step) and see how its sounds....kinda' "bluesy".


M.

[Pierre]

Re: Blues theory questions...

Yeah I always bend the 3rd a little. Kinda comes in naturally after a bit, that G/G#.

[BluesGuyJ]

Re: Blues theory questions...

When I am playing in a major standard blues progression, such as a I, IV V in the key of C, I combine major and minor notes in the minor pentatonic shape. These are all of the notes I will use in a blues progression in C, you should try and figure out how they fall into the main minor pentatonic scale form.

C D Eb E F F# G A Bb

My scale consists of 9 notes, that aint natural. I never play any of those notes randomly or in chromatic order, I pick and choose which ones to use depending on what chord I am playing over.

Say we are playing over the C7, I will play a hamer on from G to A, then play C then D and then bend the D up to a E. I nailed the target notes for a C major chord.

Say we are now on the F7, I will return to my minor pentatonic form in the key of C, but play a lick of C then Eb and bend the Eb up to a F. Even though we are playing a C minor pentatonic over a major key, the minor 3rd of a C minor pentatonic scale acts as the minor seventh of a F7 chord. So a unatural scale works in a unatural chord progression where 3 major chords all have minor 7ths.

Hope this helps!

[Osensei]

Re: Blues theory questions...

If I see a chord and a I hope to improvise over it then I need to know everything about it. I need to know more than just the basics concerning the chord in order to craft a melody over it. If I see a C7 then I need to think of more than just C E G Bb. There are different flavors of 7th chords.

C7 = C E G Bb
C(b9) = C E G Bb Db
C9 = C E G Bb D
C(#9) = C E G Bb D# <=== LOOK the #9 (D#) is the same as a minor 3rd (Eb)
and so on ...

Thats why the minor third works over a major, dom7th chord. Because the min 3 rd is actually a chord extension known as the #9. Hendrix used to vamp the **** outta raised 9th chords all day long. Minor over major! That's the blues sound baby. And its all made possible by chord extensions.

[BluesGuyJ]

Re: Blues theory questions...

Try listeining to some B.B. King and learning some of his licks by ear. He plays slow enough so that it shouldnt be too hard. Try to take notice of what notes he is playing over which chord, I feel that he primarily plays major scales but he does revert to the minor pentatonic about 1/4 of the time in a mjaor blues progression.

[Gunny47]

Re: Blues theory questions...

Try listening to some dickey betts if you wanna hear some serious major penatoics over the blues. He's the master of the melodic blues solo IMO and is totally underrated IMO as well. In fact, the new Guitarist Magazine has an article with a few licks in the style of "One Way Out" and they mix minor and major as well. All the blues ppl of the late 60s era use a lot of major penatonic action as well, the first guy that comes to mind for me is Mr. Clapton.

When I play over the blues, I take many different approaches. If I know it's going to be me soloing for a long time, I take it slow. For the first time, I just use the strict minor penatonic, very little vibrato (if not none), long sustaining notes, slow and more exact bends. Then the second time of the progression, I do the major penatonic on the IV chord and ya know, gradually add more vibrato, speed and bends, blues notes, chromatic phrases and use of the major penatonic as the solo goes on, until it is blistering cranking! Then a lot of times then I do a lot of holding the root note (higher octave on the B string) and just vibratoing it like NUTS!

Another cool thing is the dorian mode over the blues (if you are doing a C blues, do C dorian). That always seems to work for me. And my personal favorite, the Dominant 7 Scale. I usually use this on the V chord, but it works anywhere I believe and it just gives it a really cool tone, and just like chromatics, it is good to use it SPARINGLY. That scale is all based off of the penatonic scale with 5 patterns, I'll write out the first "pattern" or whatever I guess you can call it.

G7 1st pattern - use over G minor penatonic, 1st pattern:
G, A, B, D, F (back to G and then up the next octave).

I dont know if I described it well enough, but those are the notes. Sounds pretty cool. It's the Major 2nd and Major 3rd which give it its unique tone.

[Pierre]

Re: Blues theory questions...

My favorite blues or blues inspired musicians are:

Lynyrd Skynyrd: freebird is overplayed but ****...ANY Skynyrd song has awesome phrasing.

Eric Clapton: Beano era. I never get tired of this album and never will.

Allman Brothers Band: Hoochie Coochie Man. It's a way harder solo than it seems. Anything they've done around this era, slide or not...

Albert King: not for his lead playing as much as for the whole arrangements I gotta say.

GOOD call about BB! I'm a fan but never got round to actually do this. Indeed it wouldn't be as hard as say, Gary Moore, but I'd probably learn a lot. Thanks guys!

[bungalowbill]

Re: Blues theory questions...

If you are going to check out BB, add Freddie King to the list. You might want to check out some country and jazz players takes on the blues...it could open up a world possibilities.

[jeremy]

Re: Blues theory questions...

any of those old blues guys are great to listen to, they play slow enough that you can pick up on it most of the time but they are the roots of much of what followed.

the blues 3rd is actually between the major and minor 3rd. the field hollering that was the precursor to the blues wasnt made by music theorists but by plantation workers who were singin about a hard life. they didnt know or care about the fact that the notes that they were singing didnt fit into one of the 12 tones that we use as our musical alphabet. the fact that the blues is all based on 7ths doesnt work musically either but blues isnt about theory. its about having something to say, or atleast should be.

having said that, major and minor scales work fine. i love to go back and forth between major and minor scale tones during solos.
for a solo i might use C D Eb E F Gb G A Bb B which i think is (my theory sucks) the blues scale + the mixolydian mode

[louthunder]

Re: Blues theory questions...

When it comes to the blues, the #1 rule is feel what your playing. Don't try to over think!Albert King , B.B., Freddie King, Duke Robillard,Robben Ford, etc. When you listen to these guys, there all over the place. The great ones locked themselves into a room, and did some serious " wood shedding"I throw most of the rules out when I play the blues. Obviously there are notes in any scale that don't work . All that being said, I still work off certain scales. I just don't let them limit me on where I go.

[jeremy]

Re: Blues theory questions...

just looked at bluesguyj's scale, basically the same as the one i posted. apparently great minds play alike

[PFDarkside]

Re: Blues theory questions...

I have three things to add. (1) I think it has to do with how long the b3 is sustained and when it is played. It works well as a passing tone, but if a horn section is playing a sustained major chord and you hold a minor 3rd, it will grind. (2) Even though we say E A B, it's really closer to E5 A5 B5 drifting between major and minor unless you have a rhythm guitarist playing a third all the time or a horn section/keyboardist. Even when I'm comping on rhythm I usually play 7 chords without the third. (3) My brother can not STAND that minor note over a major chord sound. It just sounds "wrong" to him after all the music theory he's done over the last 5 years.

That's it.