Need amp recording advice - no mics (DI? USB? Amp sim?)

[stratguy23]

I'm wondering if any of you have experience recording amps at home without using a mic (SM57, etc.). I live in a shared wall situation and so can't turn up amps at home to what I consider a meaningful level for mics.

I also prefer tube amps and have figured out that 1 watt is the max I can push at home. Right now I play through a Marshall DSL1 combo, and the 1 watt is perfect for my needs - I can get up to about 9 o'clock on the volume with classic rock crunch w/o getting complaints.

I want to start some recording projects - demo only, don't need pro results - and am wondering about the best way to do so. I am willing to invest in gear, but obviously the more $, the more sure I want to be that it will work well.

Here are the 3 best options I've come up with:

1. Head/cab with Radial JDX delivering what evidently seems to be a pretty faithful representation of amp sound to audio interface. (I've heard some JDX clips, though, and am not sure that it's as good as everyone claims; I still hear some coloration of the amp sound.)

2. Laney L5 head - in addition to having XLR (w/cab simulation) direct and USB outs, it also has a separate clean signal out for the purpose of re-amping. I've never seen any other amp offer this "re-amp send" feature. The separate clean out seems like a huge plus; I could mix the USB out signal with a good amp/cab sim tone (applied after recording).

3. Yamaha THR - This is the only USB out tone I've heard that didn't sound bad. I would lose real tube amp feel, but evidently the simulated amp sounds are very good.

Am I missing anything? Any recommendations or experience you can share?

Basically every XLR and USB out I've heard from amps has sounded bad (XLR = worst, USB = less bad), so I'm ruling out amps that have only those.

[stratguy23]

Re: Need amp recording advice - no mics (DI? USB? Amp sim?)

To help answer my own question, I found out that the USB out in the Yamaha THR series outputs both wet and dry signals simultaneously. Evidently each signal shows up as a stereo pair in the DAW.

This is super cool b/c in case I don't like the wet signal coming out of the THR, I can process the dry signal and mix to taste. So this puts the Yamaha THR even with the Laney L5 head in terms of recording capabilities. THR is half as expensive. Am I willing to sacrifice actual tube amp feel?

I'll try to get to a store tomorrow to see if I can try out a THR.

[NecroPolo]

Re: Need amp recording advice - no mics (DI? USB? Amp sim?)

Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 + Reaper + Peavey ReValver amp sim, the price of these altogether would not reach the price of a Yamaha THR I guess. The THR is a nice unit, btw.

- 2i4: nice budget audio interface that works flawlessly with any DAW of your choice. It has decent mic preamps and AD/DA converters for the price so whenever you decide to record with microphones or start enhancing demos, it will be a great tool to do that.
- ReValver: It is quick, small, cheap, sounds organic. We recorded DI guitars for an album with it recently and I could reduce the latency down to 4-6ms and I don't even use a friggin' Thunderbolt interface.
- Reaper: It is a steal for $60 as it is a fully armed studio software, absolutely capable of anything music production and it's flexible + reliable like hell. Replacing ProToos hell with this one was among my best audio production decisions, ever.

[stratguy23]

Re: Need amp recording advice - no mics (DI? USB? Amp sim?)

Thanks for the suggestions!

I already have an audio interface (an old Native Instruments Komplete), so I am set there.

ReValver: It is quick, small, cheap, sounds organic. We recorded DI guitars for an album with it recently and I could reduce the latency down to 4-6ms and I don't even use a friggin' Thunderbolt interface.

Cool! Can you compare ReValver with any other sims (S-Gear, Bias, etc.)? What I'm looking for is a good approximation of 70s/80s Marshall tones (plexi, JCM800, etc.). I don't need all the high gain stuff (Diezel, 5150, etc.) that tends to come with sims.

- Reaper: It is a steal for $60 as it is a fully armed studio software, absolutely capable of anything music production and it's flexible + reliable like hell. Replacing ProToos hell with this one was among my best audio production decisions, ever.

I do need a new DAW, though. I used Reaper about 10 years ago, but I imagine it's a lot different now. Why did you prefer Reaper to Pro Tools?

THR comes bundled with Cubase, which is a plus... but THR also has no speaker out. I really enjoy practicing with a real amp, so I'm a little skeptical of what playing through the THR (recording aside) will feel like. I wonder if it's like playing through a transistor radio or whatever.

[Brandenburg]

Re: Need amp recording advice - no mics (DI? USB? Amp sim?)

i like guitar rig 4 out of all the amp sims out there..Others such as revaler or BIAS might have more features but imo.. the GR4/5 just sounds better..

the DAW i use is just meant for loading VST's and not recording..but it has ALOT of features.. VST HOST

[NecroPolo]

Re: Need amp recording advice - no mics (DI? USB? Amp sim?)

(...) but imo.. the GR4/5 just sounds better..

Subjective taste, that's all about it. That's the only rule really. Everyone prefers something else as everyone has dedicated requirements. I like ReValver and AMT preamps because with those I can get sounds quite close to the recorded / processed guitars that I work with most of the time anyway. You prefer Guitar Rig as it feels to be the most amp-like. Some prefers Line6 due to its tweakability, someone else uses AxeFX or Kemper because of their sound quality that of course has its price. Tools to complete certain tasks.

Can you compare ReValver with any other sims (S-Gear, Bias, etc.)?

Unfortunately I can't as I don't use others. Back in time when I needed tools to do this job I tested a couple of them and stuck to the ones that worked for me instantly and instead of exploring I just kept using and perfecting what I already had. You know how it goes: if ain't broke, ain't fix it.

What I'm looking for is a good approximation of 70s/80s Marshall tones (plexi, JCM800, etc.).

It can do that nicely but IMO no VSTi can mimic them as organic as these ones:

I do need a new DAW, though. I used Reaper about 10 years ago, but I imagine it's a lot different now. Why did you prefer Reaper to Pro Tools?

Stability. Bugs. Flexibility. Customer support. Regular failures. Business model that wants to me to purchase things twice. Old sessions can be loaded with issues. Low performance. After 3 years of ProTools hell that rolled something in the way of a dynamic workflow every goddamn day, switching to Reaper was like salvation.

[stratguy23]

Re: Need amp recording advice - no mics (DI? USB? Amp sim?)

Brandenburg, I had no idea dedicated VST hosts existed. I don't have a need for one (want VST for recording only), but if I were a laptop performer, that would absolutely be the ticket.

NecroPolo, I forgot that analog amp simulation existed, so thanks for the reminder. I like Tech 21 stuff. That Fly Rig sounds great. And AMT, wow, mind blown. I haven't done preamp pedals since the '90s SansAmps, but that M2 sounds amazing. I will give that a serious look.

I tried some THRs at the store today (the X and C versions). They had very good tones, but the feel was not for me. It felt too much like the digital modelers I've played before, where I feel like I'm playing a mixed/mastered guitar tone, not an amp with raw/uncompressed tones. Ironically, THR would probably yield better recorded tones, but "amp feel" is really important to me, as reacting to an amp inspires me and makes me play better. So no THR for me.

EDITED TO ADD: Also, thanks for the input about Reaper. I like the "can open old sessions" feature. I could finish those 10 year-old sessions if I can find the files somewhere

[Brandenburg]

Re: Need amp recording advice - no mics (DI? USB? Amp sim?)

Brandenburg, I had no idea dedicated VST hosts existed. I don't have a need for one (want VST for recording only), but if I were a laptop performer, that would absolutely be the ticket.

NecroPolo, I forgot that analog amp simulation existed, so thanks for the reminder. I like Tech 21 stuff. That Fly Rig sounds great. And AMT, wow, mind blown. I haven't done preamp pedals since the '90s SansAmps, but that M2 sounds amazing. I will give that a serious look.

I tried some THRs at the store today (the X and C versions). They had very good tones, but the feel was not for me. It felt too much like the digital modelers I've played before, where I feel like I'm playing a mixed/mastered guitar tone, not an amp with raw/uncompressed tones. Ironically, THR would probably yield better recorded tones, but "amp feel" is really important to me, as reacting to an amp inspires me and makes me play better. So no THR for me.

EDITED TO ADD: Also, thanks for the input about Reaper. I like the "can open old sessions" feature. I could finish those 10 year-old sessions if I can find the files somewhere

yea.. the host program really is kool.. so many options i havent event scratched the surface..afraid too as its so mind numbingly involved.. once I got it configured it, it rocked.. Would of went smoother if i had used the manual instead of just muddling around but i got it configured

http://hermannseib.com/english/vsthost.htm

[Brandenburg]

Re: Need amp recording advice - no mics (DI? USB? Amp sim?)

Subjective taste, that's all about it. That's the only rule really. Everyone prefers something else as everyone has dedicated requirements. I like ReValver and AMT preamps because with those I can get sounds quite close to the recorded / processed guitars that I work with most of the time anyway. You prefer Guitar Rig as it feels to be the most amp-like. Some prefers Line6 due to its tweakability, someone else uses AxeFX or Kemper because of their sound quality that of course has its price. Tools to complete certain tasks.

well.. perhaps you missed the "IMO".. of course its subjective.. my PC rig is probably different that ya's.. different sound card,interface,etc.. and my guitars are highly customized so the sound I get works for me

all you are doing is just reiterating what I have said or implied

[NecroPolo]

Re: Need amp recording advice - no mics (DI? USB? Amp sim?)

well.. perhaps you missed the "IMO"..

No mate you got it wrong. I quoted your "IMO" and agreed, double time. The core of the garbage I was writing was something like, there is no general truth only subjective opinions and linked a couple of thoughts to what you said. I may run too long with it. Sorry if it was not clear, no harm intended. Cheers

[Brandenburg]

Re: Need amp recording advice - no mics (DI? USB? Amp sim?)

No mate you got it wrong. I quoted your "IMO" and agreed, double time. The core of the garbage I was writing was something like, there is no general truth only subjective opinions and linked a couple of thoughts to what you said. I may run too long with it. Sorry if it was not clear, no harm intended. Cheers

np.. so easy to be misinterpreted on the net..

[DankStar]

Re: Need amp recording advice - no mics (DI? USB? Amp sim?)

I found out that the USB out in the Yamaha THR series outputs both wet and dry signals simultaneously. Evidently each signal shows up as a stereo pair in the DAW.

that's a pretty cool feature!

[stratguy23]

Re: Need amp recording advice - no mics (DI? USB? Amp sim?)

Yeah, I'm surprised that it isn't more heavily promoted. I had to really dig around to learn about that.

Maybe Yamaha want to emphasize that their processed tone already sounds good recorded. But since amp and cab sims are so popular now, it's *huge* that you can get a dry recorded signal at the same time as your processed one.

The implications for workflow are great. Just use the knobs on THR to get a usable tone for monitoring, then record into DAW and apply a killer amp/cab sim to the dry tone for your finished recorded one.

That way you don't have to worry about printing (and going through all the tweaking to get to) a killer tone. Just capture the performance and process it later. I could see it working great on the road, especially if you don't want to carry around a dedicated audio interface and monitors. THR and laptop only would be sufficient.