Arrangement/ Song Structure Tips?

[Kamanda~SD]

Tossing this one out there for ya's.

I'm talking more about actual song structure than the arrangements of the instruments themselves (often used interchangeably).

My problem:

I'll normally have 2-3 riffs that go well together, but once I get to a certain point I often find myself sitting on a half finished track for awhile. Sometimes I may even have an intro-Verse-Chorus as well as a later section, but unsure how to get from point D-G if you know what I mean.
My other problem is when I bring this to the band...no one really cares or is able to help out with it. Some times the do of course, but often were left trying out the same 1:30 of a new tune over and over with no real progress. I realize not everything can come together right away, but still...were talking weeks.

Anyone got any tips on how to overcome this?

EDIT: Bonus question. Any common moves for different sections of a song starting on something other than the root? Sometimes I struggle with this as well. Of course playing around usually yields something different, but wondering if there's any more common moves as a starting point.

[Securb]

Re: Arrangement/ Song Structure Tips?

Not sure what you mean when you say point D-G? The most basic song structure is ABACAB, hence the song. (A) Verse, (B) Chorus, (A) Verse, (C) Bridge, (A) Verse, (B) Chorus, or some form of this. Are you having trouble building the structure or the transitions from A to B? As far as starting a different section with something other than root, any scale tone will "safely" work. You can even do the new part on another key or time signature. There are no rules when it comes to writing music. Just keep experimenting it will come to you.

[Mincer]

Re: Arrangement/ Song Structure Tips?

Listen to all types of music, too. Model what you do after some famous stuff to start. Then vary it from there. There are no rules here, and no particular song structures guarantee success. But you can copy and steal from people to start, then start altering the formula.

[Clint 55]

Re: Arrangement/ Song Structure Tips?

Here's an example I like that starts on something other than the root. At the Tears stream part when the band kicks in it goes I,IV,I,V, then it starts on the vi: vi,IV,I,V. Stuff like that. Other basic ideas would be starting on the IV or iv or V.

[Kamanda~SD]

Re: Arrangement/ Song Structure Tips?

Not sure what you mean when you say point D-G?

I just mean I usually have 1-3 parts that go together (A B C) its other stuff ,say going into an extended middle section before returning kinda thing.

Thanks everyone so far for the tips

[TwilightOdyssey]

Re: Arrangement/ Song Structure Tips?

Warning! This is going to be rambling/stream of thought --

A good chunk of the answer lies in what type of music you write and if you are trying to appeal to diehard fans of that music or crossover fans between that style and something else.

The music I write has little concern for traditional pop song structure though I am very concerned about the overall structure itself and whether it can sustain interest throughout. I agree with Mincer's thought about finding a song similar in style to your own and copying the structure of that in order to complete your own song.

Another thought might be to write the lyrics first, even if they are temporary, to give your music a narrative to hang the music on. As most rock forms follow the basic pop structure popularized oh-so-long ago but with some bits made a bit longer and the optional solo/interlude/instrumental section added,this shouldn't be too hard to do.

Not sure if my process will be helpful to you at all, but here it is:
i almost always decide on the concept of the piece I am working on first (since my songs are very nerdy and are often based on an existing narrative or actual event). Pretty much at the same time I have a fair idea of how long the overall song will be. Some ideas I know can be told in a short time (<5 minutes) and some require a long time (>10 minutes). I then set out a mental wish list of ideas I want to incorporate into a song -- gang vocals, a particular string orchestration bit, particular time signatures and key changes. When I start writing a song, I am not precious about the order of the riffs most times; I just sketch out the sections and move them as required until the song is complete.

Completing a song; ie, from initial idea to barcoded and digitally distributed release, is akin to finishing a book; it's a lot of work and requires a lot of focus and discipline to get it right. Having heard your playing, I think you definitely have the skill set required to do this!

Maybe what you need is a collaborator to help you complete them. There's no shame in that. Personally, I use session musicians who specialize in the things I am not strong in so that I can continue to focus on getting the product done. I average about one album plus 2-3 singles/year. For me it's a constant case of working on many songs at once, finishing a song or set of songs for release, and then trucking through the next project.

Of course, completing the song is just one piece of the puzzle; you have to mix and master the thing, get the artwork created or at the very least licensed, get digital distribution sorted, and then release the thing into 'markets' where at the very least you will receive feedback if not blog and press reviews.

My current 'white board' of song ideas always has enough works in progress to keep things fresh so I can bounce between songs when one isn't particularly inspiring me; you have to be careful, however, that you don't load yourself down with so many ideas that you never finish any of them! Oftentimes I will get new ideas when I am working on an existing piece, and I make sure to note that idea down but don't get to it until I have completed the one I am currently working on.

[Obsessive Compulsive]

Re: Arrangement/ Song Structure Tips?

Likewise I don't follow the 'Love Me Tender' song format since my music these days consist of free-from jazz/ fusion.

I normally modulate (change keys) in the middle of a song, preceding the new key a fourth (five half steps) above a V7 chord (striving to not break the rules here); then start with ii-V7-I formula or placing a diminished chord six half steps (instead of resolving to I) after the V7 in order to prolong the tension.

You can exploit the standard jazz ii-V-I-iv then move forward by fourth (five half steps) until finally resolving to I again; then you don't have to worry about getting stuck as you get from point D to G. This also answers your question regarding starting a section with anything other than the root.

If any of these doesn't work, I just steal an excerpt from Chick Corea's 'Spain' and call it my own, making sure I have 10 million dollars and a good copyright infringement lawyer (preferably Jewish) handy..lol.

[DankStar]

Re: Arrangement/ Song Structure Tips?

I'd say 90 percent of the problem is the people you're working with. I'm a crappy songwriter, but I've penned a few in my day, and I guarantee if we sat down you and I could bang out a tune in a couple of hours. Your into it, I'm into it, it's a done deal.

When I visited Jolly we about had a whole tune done just goofing around half stoned and drunk.

[Kamanda~SD]

Re: Arrangement/ Song Structure Tips?

Thanks again everyone!

DankStar - I agree. Love the guys, but when it comes to WRITING there's something to be desired. They all say they want to work on tunes but to them that means bashing out the same 1:30 of what we have so far. In a previous band there was already a main songwriter when I joined and it was great for both of us to be able to bounce stuff off each other etc. So I hear ya there. Not to say they are useless, they have their moments of brilliance in the songwriting process, but it's just few and far between that's the problem. the last suggestion on one new tune was 'we should play it faster' hahahahah

[Securb]

Re: Arrangement/ Song Structure Tips?

My old band was stuck for a song section once, so we rolled dice. We rolled one die to decide how many chord changes would be in the arrangement. Then we rolled two dice to decide on the chords based on the key (II, IV, etc.). It ended up being the section that I played the lead over and came out cool. I have a tape of it somewhere I will try to dig out.

[Mincer]

Re: Arrangement/ Song Structure Tips?

Another method I have used is Brian Eno's Oblique Strategies. They are a card deck, and you pick a card, and it has a rather odd saying, but you try to figure out how to creatively apply it to your situation. I have an actual deck now (it has really come in handy), but there is an online version here.

[Demanic]

Re: Arrangement/ Song Structure Tips?

The bridge is the keystone of the arch.

Sent from my MotoE2(4G-LTE) using Tapatalk

[IMENATOR]

Re: Arrangement/ Song Structure Tips?

What I do is I play riff A then start to diver from it, then I get a new riff B that was born from A that has its own identity but still some how can live along with Riff A, I think some people say the song grows organically: You make a new part using a previous one as a starting point. I used to try to make songs by putting together riffs that were born them selves at different moments and it was difficult. Just take the time, play what you have, enjoy it, don't think too much about it and your own mood and the song mood will take you to the song's destination, whatever it is.

[PFDarkside]

Re: Arrangement/ Song Structure Tips?

Although its basic, I enjoyed this episode as it relates to riff based music.

http://songexploder.net/metallica

If you are doing more chordy stuff, try to apply the ABACAB formula a few times just to grease the wheels of creativity.

Also, if you are looking for a chord to spark an idea for the bridge, try "ii". You'll find it in quite a few songs.

[TwilightOdyssey]

Re: Arrangement/ Song Structure Tips?

Also, if you are looking for a chord to spark an idea for the bridge, try "ii". You'll find it in quite a few songs.

Ah, well if we are going to delve into actual composition --

What's interesting about the ii chord is that you can use it to easily shift the key in subtle ways. For example, if you start with Am, you can have a progression of Am/G/D, shift the Am from the ii to the vi chord and make the D either Dm or C, shift it again and make Am the iii chord and one again make the G chord an F. It will be pretty subtle until you play melodies over those chords, and it creates new melodic ideas.

Am/G/D = A Dorian
Am/G/Dm = A natural minor
Am/F/Dm = A Phrygian



Small changes, but big tonal shifts.