The importance of fifth and repercussions

[devastone]

Mincer covered it pretty well, the root is usually covered well by other instruments, especially bass, and is strongly implied by the progression or cadence. The 5th is the next least significant, for pretty much the same reasons, it is strongly implied, except, again, as mentioned, it is a diminished 5th in which case it can be needed to state the diminished-ness. But, again, if you are playing with keys or multiple other instruments, it is probably being played, in a 3 piece, it can be pretty important since the bass is probably covering the root. HTH!

[Demanic]

As a bass player in a three piece, I should check all this out.

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[Jacew]

Since I asked this question, I've learned a lot of more theory, and I think I can now answer to this question myself:

Isn't it actually a part of tritone substitution? There's 4 different dimished chords in Major, with rest being just inversions of others and that fifth works, as it is part of some other key with same dim chord.

So what makes the fifth work is if you move from dim chord to other chord that won't clash with your original key and is part of other key that has the said fifth? However moving I chord with fifth in dim 7 chord would clash... Except it's so close to root in physical sense it actually doesn't, but just slides to it.

[Demanic]

Since I asked this question, I've learned a lot of more theory, and I think I can now answer to this question myself:

Isn't it actually a part of tritone substitution? There's 4 different dimished chords in Major, with rest being just inversions of others and that fifth works, as it is part of some other key with same dim chord.

So what makes the fifth work is if you move from dim chord to other chord that won't clash with your original key and is part of other key that has the said fifth? However moving I chord with fifth in dim 7 chord would clash... Except it's so close to root in physical sense it actually doesn't, but just slides to it.

Well isn't that what you want it to do?
Clash, but slide into it.

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[PFDarkside]

Since I asked this question, I've learned a lot of more theory, and I think I can now answer to this question myself:

Isn't it actually a part of tritone substitution? There's 4 different dimished chords in Major, with rest being just inversions of others and that fifth works, as it is part of some other key with same dim chord.

So what makes the fifth work is if you move from dim chord to other chord that won't clash with your original key and is part of other key that has the said fifth? However moving I chord with fifth in dim 7 chord would clash... Except it's so close to root in physical sense it actually doesn't, but just slides to it.

Let me preface by saying, I’m learning all the time as well, so none of this is out of a text book. I think you’ve got your head wrapped around it and have your options down.

Can you give an example of how you are using it and the stylistic context? Reading through the thread a few things jump into my head.

First, the number of times I’ve seen the true 7b5 from the major 7th outside of classical and a little jazz/standards is pretty small. Many times a substitution is used. Here are some that happen frequently.
1. Borrowed bVII - this is used so often it just feels natural
2. V6 - Fifth in 1st inversion. In G major, it’s the D/F#. This happens all the time too
3. Drop the diminished 5th

We had a song that was written by our singer who knew no music theory. The melody was 1 - 5 - 6 - 7 - 5 - 6 - 7 - 5 - 4 - 5. (Of course there’s a rhythm and duration not noted there). Being a pop punk song it was all power chords following the vocal melody. I always hated the root/fifth on the 7th degree, but after playing it 100 times it just sounded right. If I tried to use the 7b5 it sounded way too technical or classical. I tried having the guitar and bass just sit on 6 while the vocal melody went to 7 but that didn’t work. Then the singer tried to just eliminate the 7 all together and that was too boring. So we had a passing chord that included the b5 from the tonic!

The concept of Tritone substitution is usually referring to dominant 7th chords. Since the 3rd and b7th are a tritone apart you sub the dom7 chord a tritone away as the 3rd and 7th remain, just their functions are swapped.

It’s all pretty interesting! I think the biggest thing is that of they are short, passing tones/chords just about anything can work. If you are sitting on it, hammering away things that are generally considered “out” are going to be harder to force through.