19 sound P-Rails HSS- will this work?

[oyobass]

First let me admit- I (obviously) swiped the source images from the SD site.

The first is my crappy editing job to adapt the 2 P-Rail, 2-push/pull diagram to a strat:
View attachment 12841

The next is the SD standard strat 1 vol 1 master tone with a bypass switch for the bridge, (edited in what looks to be crayon):
View attachment 12842

With this mod, I hope to dump the P-Rail output directly to the volume/tone, bypassing the 5-way, mainly to get a Tele-like bridge/neck PU tone.

If my math is right, (that's a big if), I should be able to get 19 sounds with this rig...

If I end up out of phase, I just swap the leads to the 5-way and the ground, right?

I'm a newb here, forgive me if altering Duncan diagrams is verboten here. I looked in the FAQ and couldn't find anything on it.

I'll happily remove the altered files if I did a bad thing by putting them up.

Thanks!

Oyo

 

[Mark Le Comte]

Re: 19 sound P-Rails HSS- will this work?

Welcome to the forum. Artietoo and Hermetico are pretty much the wiring gurus here, though a few others are very knowledgeable too.

If you dont get an answer try sending a PM to one of them, both have posted lots of diagrams.

 

[oyobass]

Re: 19 sound P-Rails HSS- will this work?

The question is... what do you want to achieve?

The first mod gives you parallel/series sounds from that P-Rails but, you are using two pull/pushes when you could use only one to have the same results.

The second mod is a "bridge-on" mod and it's ok.

If you are planning to use two pull/pushes, you can have the 4 sounds of the P-Rails (coils in series, coils in parallel, split to P90, split to Rail).

So...
What functions do you want?
what pickups are involved (brand, model, wires...)?

Thanks for taking a look at this.

The two strat style PUs are single coil, stock SX pickups, have 2 wires each. they don't sound bad, (actually really good for a $130 guitar).
What I want is the 4 bridge sounds to work with any combination of the 2 singles.

I have the P-Rail mounted with the rail closest to the bridge, to get a more authentic strat sound and keep the spacing right for the "in between" tone in position 4. Basically, I want an authentic strat sound with lots of options.

On the P-Rails diagram, I took the "2 P-Rails, 1 vol, 1tone, 3-way switch" and subtracted everything but the 1 P-Rail and the two switches. The diagram I posed won't give me 4 sound switching?

Thanks.

o:yo:

 

[oyobass]

Re: 19 sound P-Rails HSS- will this work?

Welcome to the forum. Artietoo and Hermetico are pretty much the wiring gurus here, though a few others are very knowledgeable too.

If you dont get an answer try sending a PM to one of them, both have posted lots of diagrams.

Thanks for the welcome and the tip!

O:yo:

 

[oyobass]

Re: 19 sound P-Rails HSS- will this work?

The VOL and TONE pull/pushes will allow you to obtain the 4 sounds from the P-Rail.
The SPDT on/on mini toggle will allow you to add the bridge pickup (indepently of the selected P-Rail sound) to the rest of positions.

The pull/pushes work as follows:

Both Down = regular humbucker (both coils in series)
Both UP = coils in parallel
Vol Up / tone down = rail coil
Vol down / tone UP = P90

Important note:
If you are mixing the P-Rails with stock fender pickups then, you probably will have the P-Rails out-of-phase.
If as a resulting of this wiring you get a thin, nasal, hollow and metallic sound when combining the full humbucker P-Rail with either of the other two then, it is out-of-phase.
To fix it, just swap green and black wires of your P-Rail in this diagram.

Wow it is amazing how far off I was. Thanks for the help, Hermetico.

I had assumed that one side of each switch controlled one P-Rail in a 2 P-Rail guitar. I'm glad I waited to hear back from you! I have all the new pots and switches mounted, and was just about ready to fire up the soldering iron, before I thought better of it.

A related question- My 5-way switch has all of the solder lugs on one side. I just need to look at your diagram as if all the lugs were on one side, but in the identical order, correct?

Thanks.

O:yo:

 

[oyobass]

Re: 19 sound P-Rails HSS- will this work?

Can you post a pic of that switch?
what lugs are active when you move the blade?

Usually, this should work:

Otherwise, you need to identify each lug in your switch and map this diagram.
C = Common lug (always active with at least one more lug).
N = Neck position
M = Middle position
B = Bridge position

Question: The 5-way bridge input on your drawing is not connected. would that turn position 5 into a "kill Switch"?

I used your drawing and labeled the ins and outs as they appear on my guitar:

View attachment 12854

Oops! typo on drawing: Bottom lug should be labeled "Bridge input"

Thanks.

O:yo:

 

[Mark Le Comte]

Re: 19 sound P-Rails HSS- will this work?

Please, don't address the people to PM me.
I am connecting in a regular basis and I am just answering with the speed I can. To PM me WILL NOT speed up my answer.
Also, I prefere to answer TO THREADS because, in that way, other people that can have the same issue or need will take profit.

OK Sorry, will not do that again.

 

[oyobass]

Re: 19 sound P-Rails HSS- will this work?

IT'S CONNECTED. Not to the left side but it's to the right side of the switch. Look carefully.

I saw that after I posted, sorry!

So, you have a 2 tone, 1 volume guitar!
Please, be descriptive from the beginning!

Sorry again. Yes, the original wiring is 1V, 2T.

I though YOU WANTED to substitue one tone pot with a toggle switch to do the "bridge-on" stuff.
If this is the case, then my last drawing completely fits your needs.

Thanks. Yes, I do want to sub 1 tone for the "bridge-on" switch, so I'm good to go. Thanks for humoring a newb. I've swapped pickups before, but the 4-sound switching is over my head, I'm kind of struggling to understand. I appreciate the help!

O:yo:

 

[oyobass]

Re: 19 sound P-Rails HSS- will this work?

Update-

Finally had time to troubleshoot the problems I was having with the switching system. :banghead:

I played some Flyleaf on my cellphone speaker held over the pickup for a test signal generator. I traced it to an intermittent short in the coaxial cable between the volume pot and the output jack.

After replacing the output coax, I carefully put the pickguard in place- it was a tight fit, since the only push-pulls the local Guitard Center had were meant for a Les Paul depth, not for a strat style pickguard. Everything just barely fit flush.

I screwed everything back together, stung it up and-

Everything but parallel mode works! I must have shorted/broken a wire when trying to fit it all back in to the control cavity. Since it works for the most part, I'll wait 'till I change strings to troubleshoot this one.

Sound? Amazing! fits the "Strat with options" goal to a "T". After I put it back together, I spent hours playingit into my amp set on the edge of the clean/crunch divide. For a couple hours, I just played open chords plugged straight into my amp without effects. Just mesmerizing.

I had so much fun, I stayed up too late just playing. So much fun, I was nodding off at work this morning, and every time my eyes closed, I was back in front of my amp with my guitar in my hands, if only for a second or two at a time...

Thanks for the help, Hermitico!

h::yo:

 

[oyobass]

Re: 19 sound P-Rails HSS- will this work?

I hope you should be able to fix the remaining issue.
Try a multimeter instead to check continuity (0 Ohm or close to 0 means that wires are linked while infinite or 1 means a shortcut or discontinuity).

Thanks! I'll try that tonight.
h::yo:

 

[oyobass]

Re: 19 sound P-Rails HSS- will this work?

Measured at the output jack:

27.4k P-90
25.5k Rail
35.8k series
0.462M Parallel

Sounds like an open circuit? :doh:

I'll open it up the next time I change strings and look for broken wires/bad solder joints

I might turn the P-Rail around, too. I have it with the rail closest to the bridge. but that sounds too harsh with the rail by itself. Hopefully that will mellow the rail a bit and cause the 90 to be a little livelier.

Thanks for the help!

h::yo:

 

[oyobass]

Re: 19 sound P-Rails HSS- will this work?

AAAARrrrg!

I played out with the guitar last night, and it worked flawlessly. Then I got home and decided that I *had* to play the guitar again.

It was like a nightmare. Scratchy, intermittent sound that improved or got worse as I wiggled the pots.

Dang. I think I'll rewire the whole thing, and use better, more flexible wire. Last time I used wire from a LAN cable, but it was surprisingly brittle and would break if flexed or bumped.

I'll also raise the pots up a bit to get them off the bottom of the control cavity. Bummer, 'cause I already bump the volume while playing too much as it is.

Ah well, lessons learned, onward and upward from here. Although, if I was going to start over, I'd either order the correct push/pull pots, or a triple-shot mounting ring...

h::yo:

 

[GuitarBook]

Re: 19 sound P-Rails HSS- will this work?

The VOL and TONE pull/pushes will allow you to obtain the 4 sounds from the P-Rail.
The SPDT on/on mini toggle will allow you to add the bridge pickup (indepently of the selected P-Rail sound) to the rest of positions.

The pull/pushes work as follows:

Both Down = regular humbucker (both coils in series)
Both UP = coils in parallel
Vol Up / tone down = rail coil
Vol down / tone UP = P90

Important note:
If you are mixing the P-Rails with stock fender pickups then, you probably will have the P-Rails out-of-phase.
If as a resulting of this wiring you get a thin, nasal, hollow and metallic sound when combining the full humbucker P-Rail with either of the other two then, it is out-of-phase.
To fix it, just swap green and black wires of your P-Rail in this diagram.

Hello,

Just wanted to let Hermetico know that I followed that schematic to a "t" and the configuration is fantastic! Thank you so much!

I had only wired in a couple of pickups, a single humbucker in my daughter's epiphone, and a replacement lipstick in my single pup danelectro, this was a little daunting, but I would definitely do it again.

One question, if I wanted to put a killswitch in, for stuttering effects, do you have any recommendations? Thank you again for the plans.

John

 

[GuitarBook]

Re: 19 sound P-Rails HSS- will this work?

just place the kill switch between the hot and ground of the jack.

See an example on how to implement it here:

http://hermeticoguitar.blogspot.com/2009/03/diy-guitar-electronics-for-guitarists_30.html

Lots of switches to choose from, how does this one look?

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062496

Thanks!