2 Humbuckers wiring without a toggle switch

[jared70]

Hi,

I'm thinking of replacing the PUPs on my old guitar with the Black Winter set. I'd like to have separate volume and tone controls for each PUPs like on the LP. The problem is the guitar only have 4 holes: 2 volumes, 1 master tone, and a toggle switch. However, I found myself spending more time in the middle position (both PUPs on) and fiddling with the volume controls finding the "right" mix. So I thought I do away with the toggle switch and replace it with another tone control.

AFAIK, there are 2 ways to do this:

#1: Use a blender pot, a master volume, and 2 tone (still not sure how to wire the tone pots to get independent tone control for each PUPs though). My concern is as Black Winter are high gain PUPs, I need a way to control the gain. While the master volume can do it for the overall gain, how about when I want 1 PUP on high gain but not the other.

#2: take the standard LP wiring, but join together the wires going to the toggle switch. This may solve my concern on #1, and I found a diagram of a mod on StewMac that said making the volume controls truly independent, i.e. zeroing 1 volume control doesn't cut the output signal altogether.

What are the advantages and drawbacks of each methods? Effects on the output sound? In case of #1, can anybody point me to a wiring digram of it?

Also, what pot values to use, especially if using blender pot? The current PUPs are active, and the way I use it is to zero the tone controls both on the guitar and the amps. At most I only use the tone on the guitar at 1/2 max.

Thanks

 

[darthphineas]

Re: 2 Humbuckers wiring without a toggle switch

What are the advantages and drawbacks of each methods?

that will depend on your own goals and preferences.

 

[AlexR]

Re: 2 Humbuckers wiring without a toggle switch

Concentric pot for tone(s). 2 pots in one, freeing a spot for the switch with no loss of control.

 

[jared70]

Re: 2 Humbuckers wiring without a toggle switch

that will depend on your own goals and preferences.

Well, my goal is max flexibility. While I really like what I heard of Black Winter's clean sound, especially the neck PUPs, I also want the flexibility of going a bit brighter, at max like fender's twang with all the tone cut off. This is why I also consider using push/pulls for all the pots to implement independent series/parallel & coil split controls for each PUPs.

With that consideration, which method will get me closer?

Concentric pot for tone(s). 2 pots in one, freeing a spot for the switch with no loss of control.

See above.

 

[Mincer]

Re: 2 Humbuckers wiring without a toggle switch

I would do concentric tone controls. It would be easier, and it wouldn't be as awkward as concentric volumes.

 

[darthphineas]

Re: 2 Humbuckers wiring without a toggle switch

Well, my goal is max flexibility. While I really like what I heard of Black Winter's clean sound, especially the neck PUPs, I also want the flexibility of going a bit brighter, at max like fender's twang with all the tone cut off. This is why I also consider using push/pulls for all the pots to implement independent series/parallel & coil split controls for each PUPs.

With that consideration, which method will get me closer?

It might be worth it to try several methods. And then put them in real scenarios to see what words. Or maybe even come up with something totally different, based on your necessity. Experiment and see what works.

 

[beaubrummels]

Re: 2 Humbuckers wiring without a toggle switch

Hi,

I'm thinking of replacing the PUPs on my old guitar with the Black Winter set. I'd like to have separate volume and tone controls for each PUPs like on the LP. The problem is the guitar only have 4 holes: 2 volumes, 1 master tone, and a toggle switch. However, I found myself spending more time in the middle position (both PUPs on) and fiddling with the volume controls finding the "right" mix. So I thought I do away with the toggle switch and replace it with another tone control.

AFAIK, there are 2 ways to do this:

#1: Use a blender pot, a master volume, and 2 tone (still not sure how to wire the tone pots to get independent tone control for each PUPs though). My concern is as Black Winter are high gain PUPs, I need a way to control the gain. While the master volume can do it for the overall gain, how about when I want 1 PUP on high gain but not the other.

#2: take the standard LP wiring, but join together the wires going to the toggle switch. This may solve my concern on #1, and I found a diagram of a mod on StewMac that said making the volume controls truly independent, i.e. zeroing 1 volume control doesn't cut the output signal altogether.

What are the advantages and drawbacks of each methods? Effects on the output sound? In case of #1, can anybody point me to a wiring digram of it?

Also, what pot values to use, especially if using blender pot? The current PUPs are active, and the way I use it is to zero the tone controls both on the guitar and the amps. At most I only use the tone on the guitar at 1/2 max.

Thanks

If you wanted the middle position with two volumes, why would you consider a blend with a master volume? You answered your own question: just do two volumes and two tones and skip the switch. Despite that, I would have done two volumes, a master tone and a switch.

 

[Mincer]

Re: 2 Humbuckers wiring without a toggle switch

If you wanted the middle position with two volumes, why would you consider a blend with a master volume? You answered your own question: just do two volumes and two tones and skip the switch. Despite that, I would have done two volumes, a master tone and a switch.

I would do the 2V, 1T, 1 switch too, if given the choice.

 

[jared70]

Re: 2 Humbuckers wiring without a toggle switch

If you wanted the middle position with two volumes, why would you consider a blend with a master volume? You answered your own question: just do two volumes and two tones and skip the switch. Despite that, I would have done two volumes, a master tone and a switch.

Well, the idea is having the ability to control how much contribution each PUPs have to the final sound, an on board mixer if you will. The overall/master volume will be controlled elsewhere i.e. pedals. This is how I use the middle switch position (but hampered by how LP-style wiring works), and why I consider a blender in the 1st place.

The blender IMHO has the advantage of keeping the output level throughout the sweep, and only 1 control to work with. The 2 volumes in my experience will have louder output when the both are open, and having 2 controls to work with, but IMHO do give max flexibility in blending. That's what I've been able to deduce so far. However, I'm curious are there other considerations.

For component values, I'm bewildered more by the selection of the blender values, 250k or 500k, and their effects to the sound. I understand what difference it'll make for normal volume and tone controls, but for blender?

Like you said, after yours and others input and considerations, I now lean more toward 2 volumes with Fender Jazz Bass wiring, though I still have questions about it:

1. The Fender Jazz Bass wiring use a single/master tone control connected to the bridge PUP. Won't connecting another tone control in a similar way but to the neck PUP redundant cos the output from both volume controls are tied together? I want the tone controls to work independently for each PUPs.



2. The independent volume controls is achieved by shutting down (shunting to the ground) the PUPs instead of the output like the way other guitar wiring work. Will this have any adverse effect to the PUPs in the long run? or the amps? Why does guitar wiring normally shut down the output instead of the PUPs?

3. What kind of taper to use for the volumes if they'll be used mainly for controlling PUPs contribution to the final output?

Thanks

 

[beaubrummels]

Re: 2 Humbuckers wiring without a toggle switch

Well, the idea is having the ability to control how much contribution each PUPs have to the final sound, an on board mixer if you will. The overall/master volume will be controlled elsewhere i.e. pedals. This is how I use the middle switch position (but hampered by how LP-style wiring works), and why I consider a blender in the 1st place.

The blender IMHO has the advantage of keeping the output level throughout the sweep, and only 1 control to work with. The 2 volumes in my experience will have louder output when the both are open, and having 2 controls to work with, but IMHO do give max flexibility in blending. That's what I've been able to deduce so far. However, I'm curious are there other considerations.

In my experiments with a blend instead of a switch, there can be artifacts if the master isn't all the way up. The combined resistance as it varies while you sweep the blend anywhere other than extreme ends produces more of a drop out toward the center detente than a 50/50 mix of the two pickups. I had a more complex wiring setup than you, however, so I'd have to go back and look at all the possible factors. Perhaps someone else with a more straight-forward experience wiring a blend for a switch might have a different experience, but I think the combined resistance when things are not turned all the way up is a consideration.

For component values, I'm bewildered more by the selection of the blender values, 250k or 500k, and their effects to the sound. I understand what difference it'll make for normal volume and tone controls, but for blender?

I always matched the blend values to normal pot values for the guitar, so I can't speak to the effect of trying different blend values.

Like you said, after yours and others input and considerations, I now lean more toward 2 volumes with Fender Jazz Bass wiring, though I still have questions about it:

1. The Fender Jazz Bass wiring use a single/master tone control connected to the bridge PUP. Won't connecting another tone control in a similar way but to the neck PUP redundant cos the output from both volume controls are tied together? I want the tone controls to work independently for each PUPs.

Are you saying you want to use a concentric pot for the tone so you can have independent tones? That would work also.

2. The independent volume controls is achieved by shutting down (shunting to the ground) the PUPs instead of the output like the way other guitar wiring work. Will this have any adverse effect to the PUPs in the long run? or the amps? Why does guitar wiring normally shut down the output instead of the PUPs?

I don't know that I'd call any guitar wiring 'normal'. Things that are accepted as common simply happened because an instrument proved useful, sometimes affordable, and popular, so however that instrument was constructed became common. But wiring is a matter of getting the circuit to do what you want - so focus on your goals and don't worry about whether it's 'normal.' Describe how you want the guitar to behave, then work on a wiring scheme that will get you there, or as close as is physically possible, given that electricity has properties and laws that you have to work with.

3. What kind of taper to use for the volumes if they'll be used mainly for controlling PUPs contribution to the final output?

Linear for volumes, audio taper for tone controls. (I found myself in a testy thread about the matter, so I've been to school.)

 

[jared70]

Re: 2 Humbuckers wiring without a toggle switch

In my experiments with a blend instead of a switch, there can be artifacts if the master isn't all the way up. The combined resistance as it varies while you sweep the blend anywhere other than extreme ends produces more of a drop out toward the center detente than a 50/50 mix of the two pickups. I had a more complex wiring setup than you, however, so I'd have to go back and look at all the possible factors. Perhaps someone else with a more straight-forward experience wiring a blend for a switch might have a different experience, but I think the combined resistance when things are not turned all the way up is a consideration.

Does the blender have audio or linear taper, cos all I saw have audio taper. Also, I found there's 2 styles of blender, the concentric (6 lugs) and single stack (3 lugs, Emerson Blender?). I kinda get how the concentric work, but dunno about the single stack ones. Which one do you use?

If you're using the concentric, then using 2 independent volumes may also have that tendencies.

Would love to see your wiring setup BTW.

Are you saying you want to use a concentric pot for the tone so you can have independent tones? That would work also.

As I've said earlier, I have 4 holes to work with, hence 4 pots/switches/combination of both. What got me started to change the wiring is to have independent tone controls for each PUPs, not necessarily using a concentric. In fact I try to avoid it, only use it if necessary cos they're scarcely available around where I live (it's hard enough to find "normal" CTS pots, let alone concentric or push/pull).

BTW, just for reference, assuming a single PUP, is it possible to have only a tone control but not volume, or does volume and tone control have to go together (either got vol+tone, vol only, or none whatsoever)?

I don't know that I'd call any guitar wiring 'normal'. Things that are accepted as common simply happened because an instrument proved useful, sometimes affordable, and popular, so however that instrument was constructed became common. But wiring is a matter of getting the circuit to do what you want - so focus on your goals and don't worry about whether it's 'normal.' Describe how you want the guitar to behave, then work on a wiring scheme that will get you there, or as close as is physically possible, given that electricity has properties and laws that you have to work with.

Amen, thanks

Linear for volumes, audio taper for tone controls. (I found myself in a testy thread about the matter, so I've been to school.)

Thanks

EDIT
Will this work, independent volume and tone controls for each PUPs? Are there anyway to avoid treble bleed without adding more caps?



Thanks