2 questions about pickups for ES-335 type guitars in a hard rock context

[JohnnyGuitarCA]

I have an Ibanez AS73 (Gibson ES-335 type guitar) that I inherited when a friend of mine passed away. The guitar is loud and bright acoustically, which is good because I like bright guitar sounds.

It plays well. Not an expensive guitar, but it's well made. The pickups are terrible, though.

Got a nice $200 Amazon gift card that I'm itchin' to use on some new pickups for this guitar.

I play to use the guitar for hard rock.

I want this guitar to have Seymour Duncans, but I don't like the JB.

Jazz SH-2n is going in the neck position. It's my favorite neck humbucker by far.

I love Alex Lifeson's tone on the first Rush album. He used a 1968 Gibson ES-335 with stock T-Top pickups on that record. The tone on the solo on "Working Man" is just killer. I don't have to nail that tone, but it has a certain attitude to it that I really like.

Jimmy Page's live sound from the 1973 tour is legendary. I love that as well. He had a T-Top is his 59 Les Paul Standard on that tour. It replaced a broken PAF.

Question 1: Jazz Bridge and 59 Bridge - How would you describe them? How are they different? Do they get good pinch harmonics?

Question 2: Anyone here used a higher output bridge pickup in an ES-335 type guitar? Did you like it? If I go this route, I'll get the SH-5 Custom for the bridge. I think that could sound pretty cool.

I've used the Custom in a neck through body superstrat type guitar and it was great. It might be cool to have a 335 style guitar that can go into afterburner mode when I want it to. LOL

I'd really like to hear your experiences and opinions related to these 2 questions.

Thanks!

 

[freefrog]

Hi,

Regarding your question 2: you already have a "higher output" bridge humbucker in your AS73, AFAIK. If it's the model that I remember, with a cover: pull off this cover. It's responsible of what makes it "terrible" sounding IME (I've lab measurements about that somewhere in my archives). IOW, once uncovered, the stock PU would already give you a good idea of how a Duncan Custom would sound in your AS73.

About the question 1: the difference between a 59 and a Jazz is mostly in the wire insulation used... Plain Enamel VS polysol. Same kind of difference than between a P.A.F. and a T-Top - a bridge SH2 being largely like a T-Top with a bit more wire in the coils and a long A5 mag instead of a short one. ;-)

Side note, FWIW:
https://forum.seymourduncan.com/for...-to-gibson-patent-sticker-t-top’s#post6255977
​

 

[Artie]

The difference between a 59 and a Jazz is mostly in the wire insulation used... Plain Enamel VS polysol.

Hey freefrog, you could probably answer this as good as anybody: why does the insulation affect the sound? Is it simply the thickness, which would cause the wire spacing to be slightly different, which would affect the distributed capacitance?

 

[freefrog]

Hey freefrog, you could probably answer this as good as anybody: why does the insulation affect the sound? Is it simply the thickness, which would cause the wire spacing to be slightly different, which would affect the distributed capacitance?

Hey Artie,
This question is a can of worms to me.
Winders or not, some would say it's just a question of thickness, effectively. Some others would object that different insulations have different dielectric constants.
In my mind, the can of worms is in the fact that such dielectric constants are rarely known and/or published, that insulated wire can vary in specs according to industrial processes and factory tolerances, and that once the wire wound around a bobbin, there are other factors at work... POV's may vary and I've not enough free time to argue about that.
The only thing that I know for sure is that experimental results in my archives state different LRC specs for coils hosting the same number of turns and wound on a same winding machine but with wire coated of different insulating varnishes. ;-)

 

[Artie]

Cool. Thanks.

 

[Mincer]

The Custom is certainly hotter, but you might not have to go that hot to get close to Lifeson's tone. A Hybrid, or even a Whole Lotta Humbucker should do it, too.

 

[jeremy]

a jazz set would be cool in that guitar, the 59b is a bit more scooped than the jazz, the jazz has a more modern voicing to my ears though. a custom is a fine choice if you want something hotter.

no idea what the stock pups are, but i do remember not loving them when i tried one in a store years ago

 

[beaubrummels]

You cited Alex Lifeson with T-Tops in the bridge, and Jimmy Page '73 T-Top sound. IME The best stock Duncan to do that with out mods is a '59 Neck in the bridge, then get your gain from the amp. Seriously.

If you must have higher output in the bridge, I'd go to Slash next. The Slash set is a loud Jimmy Page set, though I might be tempted to swap the neck for a Seth (or Jazz; both brighter, clearer) with a Slash bridge.

Otherwise a '59 bridge will work, or a Whole Lotta Humbucker bridge.

As far as Q1, Jazz bridge is in the ballpark of a Pearly Gates bridge but it's brighter but still smooth. It's a very good all around rock bridge. Very AC/DC, Free, '70s hard rock. The '59 wasn't as bright, or as thumpy on the bottom. '59 bridge is like a Jazz bridge with a high and low filter on it IME.

I can't answer Q2, but a Custom is another alternative to a Slash. It's brighter and more cutting. The right hollow body might tame it a touch.

 

[freefrog]

Afterthoughts and boring details that I share FWIW:

-59's or SH2's from various eras might give different results in an AS73. When I read an inductance of 4.28H on a 7.24k MJ SH2 from the 90's then 3.75H on a recent 7.28k SH2, I know they won't sound exactly the same despite of very, very close DCR readings. The difference would be even bigger between a recent SH1 and a 59' from 40 years ago, whose EQing was tighter (no boomy bass and scooped mids with these ones).

-When I've upgraded an AS73, various pickups were tried in it (thanks to a quick connect strategy based on banana plugs, accessible from the bottom F hole).
The guitar ended with a set of supposed P.A.F. clones sounding rather in fact like Early Patent Number's - vintage Gibson PU's already bearing the patent but whose wire was still PE insulated: they differed from previous P.A.F.'s because of tech details that I won't dig here and announced the T-Top's to come.
The bridge pickup did receive a moderately gaussed short RC A5.
The neck unit was fitted with a long RC A2.
Gibson chrome covers on both.
It was the optimal choice for this guitar. Not quite like with a pair of poly insulated SH2's or T-Top's but just in between vintage Gibson pickups eras technically / sonically and very versatile for this reason. ;-)

 

[elelpe]

I got nice result with A2P bridge and Jazz neck in 335 type guitar. '59 was harsh in the bridge and boomy in the neck.

 

[hamerfan]

I had that combo for quite a time in my Les Paul: a ˋ79 T-Top in the bridge and Pearly Gates Bridge in the neck. This mimicks JP sounds quite nicely. But a semi is a completly different beast.

 

[ehdwuld]

I have 3 es style LPs

My Blue Ehdwuld branded semi hollow has a JB/JAZZ set and sounds awesome to me

My Epiphone Florentine has a Probucker set with A2 mags and a more vintage 8k wind
again i like them too much to take them out

My Dean Shire has something similar to the Epiphone with the OEM set using A5 mags
With vintage wind.
These too sound roo good to remove

I agree a Custom should match up with the JAZZ NECK

a 59 with an A2 mag would sound interesting as well

Heck an A2 in both the Jazz and 59 would be awesome as well

 

[Condemned soul]

Jazz neck or Jazz Bridge in the neck and a Screaming Demon in the bridge.

 

[Hiwatts and Gibsons]

I have an Ibanez AS73 (Gibson ES-335 type guitar) that I inherited when a friend of mine passed away. The guitar is loud and bright acoustically, which is good because I like bright guitar sounds.

It plays well. Not an expensive guitar, but it's well made. The pickups are terrible, though.

Got a nice $200 Amazon gift card that I'm itchin' to use on some new pickups for this guitar.

I play to use the guitar for hard rock.

I want this guitar to have Seymour Duncans, but I don't like the JB.

Jazz SH-2n is going in the neck position. It's my favorite neck humbucker by far.

I love Alex Lifeson's tone on the first Rush album. He used a 1968 Gibson ES-335 with stock T-Top pickups on that record. The tone on the solo on "Working Man" is just killer. I don't have to nail that tone, but it has a certain attitude to it that I really like.

Jimmy Page's live sound from the 1973 tour is legendary. I love that as well. He had a T-Top is his 59 Les Paul Standard on that tour. It replaced a broken PAF.

Question 1: Jazz Bridge and 59 Bridge - How would you describe them? How are they different? Do they get good pinch harmonics?

Question 2: Anyone here used a higher output bridge pickup in an ES-335 type guitar? Did you like it? If I go this route, I'll get the SH-5 Custom for the bridge. I think that could sound pretty cool.

I've used the Custom in a neck through body superstrat type guitar and it was great. It might be cool to have a 335 style guitar that can go into afterburner mode when I want it to. LOL

I'd really like to hear your experiences and opinions related to these 2 questions.

Thanks!

Just a quick question, but if what you want is a T-Top, then why not just get one of the Gibson T Type pickups, or one of the T-Top clones available from quite a few pickup makers?

Nothing against Duncan because I have loved most of their pickups I've played through. It just seems that if you specifically want that kind of tone, then you should just go to the source.

 

[freefrog]

For the record, T-Types are not exact copies of original T-Tops... Beside some historically incorrect details without influence of the sound (like the P.A.F. decal or the hex brass screws holding the coils), they host longer screw poles and a braided shielded cable with noticeably more stray capacitance than in the past (like in various other recent Gibson models).

Both factors make a stock T-Type darker sounding than a T-Top, with a rounder resonant peak.

Might be a way to avoid their products to be felt as too thin sounding...

But paradoxically, a modified SH2 happened to be closer to a vintage T-Top IME, in terms of resonant frequency and Q factor. ;-)

 

[skelt101]

For the record, T-Types are not exact copies of original T-Tops... Beside some historically incorrect details without influence of the sound (like the P.A.F. decal or the hex brass screws holding the coils), they host longer screw poles and a braided shielded cable with noticeably more stray capacitance than in the past (like in various other recent Gibson models).

Both factors make a stock T-Type darker sounding than a T-Top, with a rounder resonant peak.

Might be a way to avoid their products to be felt as too thin sounding...

But paradoxically, a modified SH2 happened to be closer to a vintage T-Top IME, in terms of resonant frequency and Q factor. ;-)

What modification(s) were done to the SH-2? Short A5 magnet? Anything else? Just the neck model, or neck and bridge?

 

[freefrog]

What modification(s) were done to the SH-2? Short A5 magnet? Anything else? Just the neck model, or neck and bridge?

Neck model. Having vintage correct parts at disposal allowed to change the baseplate, slugs, screw poles, magnet and... the 4-conductors cable for a braided shielded one. The coils were also superficially dewaxed. The goal was to define how close it could get with just the original coils (and keeper bar).

These mods weren't necessary, for the record: the difference between a stock SH2 and the vintage T-Top compared to it was relatively subtle from the start.

 

[jeremy]

a short a5 jazz neck sounds almost exactly like the t-tops ive owned. i like em in the neck, but usually not in the bridge

 

[Hiwatts and Gibsons]

For the record, T-Types are not exact copies of original T-Tops... Beside some historically incorrect details without influence of the sound (like the P.A.F. decal or the hex brass screws holding the coils), they host longer screw poles and a braided shielded cable with noticeably more stray capacitance than in the past (like in various other recent Gibson models).

Both factors make a stock T-Type darker sounding than a T-Top, with a rounder resonant peak.

Might be a way to avoid their products to be felt as too thin sounding...

But paradoxically, a modified SH2 happened to be closer to a vintage T-Top IME, in terms of resonant frequency and Q factor. ;-)

There were at least 4 other winders who showed up in a search. I think Brandon Wound iirc even has the equipment used to mold the original bobbins.

Might be worth a look. The reviews were favorable, a couple people that owned originals said they were dead on.

 

[freefrog]

Yep, Brandon Wound has a good rep for T-Top clones, like Manlius or Rewind Pickups.

In the Duncan range, the neck SH1 mentioned in a previous answer has indeed the merit to have from the start a DCR and inductance in the range of typical T-Top's (7.5k, 4.2H). Its PE insulated wire brings its own thing in the mix and makes it sound more like a "pre T-Top" Early Pat. PU (whose clones from another brand were what I've finally mounted myself in an AS73) but the difference is certainly subtle enough to become undetectable in some playing situations:... ;-)