250k and 500k pots question

[Dut90210]

Hi am renovating one of my old guitars and i am thinking of getting a JB Pickup for the bridge and APH-1 for the neck
i keep reading the the JB is better with a 250k pots because its too trebley with 500k
can someone clear this for me?
500k pots maintains all frequencies as i understand so all the treble goes through the volume
which makes the JB too "trebley" but isn't that what the tone pot is all about?
cant i control how much treble i want to throw to the ground with the tone pot?
i am having this issue since i have 1 volume and 1 tone + 3 way switch
and the APH likes the 500k so if this is not a issue and i can use the tone pot to control the JB
then the wiring will be simpler if not i will have to think of a way to wire a resistor somehow when the JB is hot to get the pot down to 250
and disconnect the resistor when engaging the APH
what say you?

 

[Ayrton]

Re: 250k and 500k pots question

Welcome to the forum!

Yes, some people have tried using a 250K with a JB. However, in my experience, the 500k works just fine.

I think when combining an overly bright guitar and the JB is the issue for some people. I would suggest starting with the 500k and then go from there.

 

[jammertom]

Re: 250k and 500k pots question

Welcome to the forum! Whether or not the JB sounds too "trebley" through your rig will depend on your particular expectations and tastes, really. I would suggest you go ahead and try the JB with the 500K pot that's already in your guitar. There's a good chance that you will like it just fine. Lots of folks here use a 250K and think it sounds better. I've tried both and prefer the 500K with my set up...different strokes for different folks...

Good luck with your project!...........Tom

 

[gregory]

Re: 250k and 500k pots question

I preferred the JB with 250k volume and 500k tone. I liked it even more with an A2 and 500k pots. If you want to load just the JB you simply connect the load between where the JB connects to the switch and ground.

The tone control is a low-pass shelf shelving midrange as well as treble (depending on the cap value, but you'll have to go down to below ~0.001 uF if you want to start to shelve just the treble). It no longer shelves and becomes a low-pass once the pot approaches a short. So to answer your question more simply, yes the tone control serves as a load, just not on the bass.

At treble frequencies the load from 250k tone and 250k volume is 125k, BTW. You'd need to put 500k across the volume and drop the tone control down to where it is 250k in order to get the tone of a 250k pot on 10.

 

[VinceT]

Re: 250k and 500k pots question

And to answer your other question - yes, the tone pot is for removing treble, but the question of volume pot value comes into play when both pots are maxed - i.e. the base tone. There is also an added consideration about the treble roll-off when dialing down the volume. As others have said, though start with what you already have, see if it works for you before making a decision.


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[Flake]

250k and 500k pots question

the way that the volume pot is wired means that theres an inherent low pass filter because of the inductance of the pickups, so even at 500K ohms it does not maintain all the frequencies

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[Flake]

Re: 250k and 500k pots question

the way that the volume pot is wired means that theres an inherent low pass filter because of the inductance of the pickups, so even at 500K ohms it does not maintain all the frequencies

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sorry I didn’t include the inherent resistance in the coils for my drawing but you get the idea


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[gregory]

Re: 250k and 500k pots question

Was it your intention to draw it up as '50s wiring?

Again, the tone control isn't just filtering treble. The corner frequency of a 0.022 uF with the output impedance of the pickup is far lower than that. It serves to lower the Q of the resonant peak of the pickup more than anything; almost exactly like lowering the value of the volume pot (for modern wiring). The only difference is that the volume control also loads the pickup at all frequencies.

 

[Clint 55]

Re: 250k and 500k pots question

but isn't that what the tone pot is all about?

Rolling back the volume, with modern wiring and to some extent 50s wiring, blunts the whole sound... and is different from rolling back the tone which only cuts highs and mids above a certain point determined by the cap.

Why I went full circle from using treble bleeds to 50s wiring and back to modern wiring. I like to be able to bass out my sound with either the volume or tone or both because they sound differently.

 

[Flake]

Re: 250k and 500k pots question

Was it your intention to draw it up as '50s wiring?

Again, the tone control isn't just filtering treble. The corner frequency of a 0.022 uF with the output impedance of the pickup is far lower than that. It serves to lower the Q of the resonant peak of the pickup more than anything; almost exactly like lowering the value of the volume pot (for modern wiring). The only difference is that the volume control also loads the pickup at all frequencies.

I heard “old guitar” so I assume that the owner is going to wire in a trad way


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[gregory]

Re: 250k and 500k pots question

Rolling back the volume, with modern wiring and to some extent 50s wiring, blunts the whole sound... and is different from rolling back the tone which only cuts highs and mids above a certain point determined by the cap.

Why I went full circle from using treble bleeds to 50s wiring and back to modern wiring. I like to be able to bass out my sound with either the volume or tone or both because they sound differently.

Treble bleed is good for cleaning up your sound under distortion. It keeps the chime, even adds chime to otherwise dark pickups. Perfect when using a single channel amp that is set to be crunchy.

Andy Timmons demonstrates this @2:30 in to this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Dy34fl8sk4

There are a few really good videos demonstrating how he gets his tone if you're interested in seeing any more.

 

[gregory]

Re: 250k and 500k pots question

I heard “old guitar” so I assume that the owner is going to wire in a trad way

Gotcha. The problem is that you don't get the same kind of high-end roll off that you were trying to show when it's wired that way.

 

[Clint 55]

Re: 250k and 500k pots question

Andy Timmons

Tone!

 

[Flake]

Re: 250k and 500k pots question

Gotcha. The problem is that you don't get the same kind of high-end roll off that you were trying to show when it's wired that way.

not sure what you mean by not the same kind of roll off, do you mean less treble cut?


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[gregory]

Re: 250k and 500k pots question

As you roll back the volume control with '50s it remains bright due to the resistance added in series with the tone control. This doesn't happen with modern wiring.

 

[Flake]

Re: 250k and 500k pots question

As you roll back the volume control with '50s it remains bright due to the resistance added in series with the tone control. This doesn't happen with modern wiring.

it remains bright, but not as bright, I know what you mean though


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[Dut90210]

Re: 250k and 500k pots question

Thanks everyone for your answers
so i am going to go with the 500k as you recommended and see
and perhaps get a push pull pot and put a resistor on the DPDT
will that work?

 

[gregory]

Re: 250k and 500k pots question

That would work, but I don't think you'll want to switch when you figure out what you like best. The switch would be good for something else like putting the JB in parallel or splitting it and your neck pickup to the inner slug coils (though I like the spit sound better with the Pearly Gates). Speaking of neck pickups, I strongly suspect the Perpetual Burn would make a stellar neck pickup to match with the JB and will perform well either split or in parallel, but I understand the affinity toward the APH.

 

[Dut90210]

Re: 250k and 500k pots question

That would work, but I don't think you'll want to switch when you figure out what you like best. The switch would be good for something else like putting the JB in parallel or splitting it and your neck pickup to the inner slug coils (though I like the spit sound better with the Pearly Gates). Speaking of neck pickups, I strongly suspect the Perpetual Burn would make a stellar neck pickup to match with the JB and will perform well either split or in parallel, but I understand the affinity toward the APH.

yeah i understand what you mean with the switch but i thought since i have 1 volume and 1 tone for both PU i thought that with the push pull i will get a 500k pot for the APH and 250k Pot for the JB
is there another way to wiring it without wasting the switch?

 

[gregory]

Re: 250k and 500k pots question

I thought I mentioned it already, but just put a resistor in parallel with the JB (from where the JB connects to the 3-way to ground). You could use the switch to toggle that resistor in and out in order to figure out whether you like it and then repurpose the switch later, of course.