4th position or "notch quack" question

[SJ318]

Hi
I love the Twangbangers and have used them for a couple years now in 2 guitars (Strat style). I decided to use 2 of them together in the NECK AND MIDDLE (this is a correction-I originally wrote neck and bridge, like an idiot!) position. I believe folks call that the 4th position or 4th notch. Either way, with other lower wind single coils in times gone by I have always had a nice Hendrix type rhythm sound or quack sound with that notch.
The Twangbangers don't seem to get very close to that sound in the 4th notch. Is it because they are wound to a 8.3K resistence? Just too strong to get that sound? I am guessing that is it and not which type of alnico, 2 or 5, as that hasn't mattered in other guitars, and I am also guessing that the bottom plate shouldn't matter either.
If the high wind is the problem, would lowering them help? Single coils are a whole new thing to me. I know very little about them when it comes to pairing them. As you know, these are true sc and not stacked.
Thanks for any tips or wisdom,
Steve Buffington

 

[Clint 55]

Re: 4th position or "notch quack" question

I'm not quite clear, but are you comparing your twangbangers in neck and bridge position to neck and middle position. Because neck/bridge sounds a lot different than neck/middle or middle/bridge regardless of the pickups.

 

[AlexR]

Re: 4th position or "notch quack" question

Notch tone is based on how two pickups react together. I have great combination tones with 2 8k + p90's.......so K (like with output) is not the be all and end all.

I also have about 5 or 6 strat sets of similar K readings.....and some have better 2 and 4 positions than others. Also having swapped them between guitars I can tell you too that the guitar itself will make a difference.

 

[jeremy]

Re: 4th position or "notch quack" question

lets clarify a few things. neck and bridge or middle and bridge? pos 4 can mean different things to different people, some call that n+m others m+b. n+b is not commonly called pos4. the notch positions are 2 & 4 since old strats had three way switches and you had to get the switch just right to get the 2 & 4 positions, some people filed a notch in the plate of the switch to make it stay or so the story goes. high wind middle pups dont "quack" as well as lower wind middle pups when combined with the neck or bridge. alnico 2 doesnt quack as well as alnico 5. the bottom plate typically rolls off high end which wont help with the filtering that gives quack. none of jimi's strats had a 5 way, fender didnt start that until '77 and with the turn around on purchasing a strat and how physical he was with them, you can be pretty sure that very little live work was done with anything but the neck, middle, or bridge position

adjusting your pup heights can help you get different sounds. try lowering the middle little by little and seeing how the effects the sound

 

[Mincer]

Re: 4th position or "notch quack" question

I would think pickup position has more to do with that sound...and what particular frequencies are cancelled. Neck & Middle sound very different from Neck & Bridge...I like both, and I don't ever use the middle alone, so I wire most Strats (using a MegaSwitch) to get the neck & bridge together in the middle position.

 

[DavidRavenMoon]

Re: 4th position or "notch quack" question

The hotter the pickup, the less top end it has. Then you don’t get that notched tone as well.

On my guitars with single coils in the neck and middle, I use a middle pickup that is fairly bright. That compensated for the neck being hotter, assuming I’m using a dual rail humbucker there (I never use actual single coils in any of my guitars).


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[SJ318]

Re: 4th position or "notch quack" question

I SCREWED UP,
I MEANT NECK AND MIDDLE POSITION. God Almighty, that is the second time in two months that I have completely screwed up my question. In my defense - I have been sick with the flu, but really, that is a flimsy excuse.
I ask my question again, - substitute NECK and MIDDLE NOT neck and bridge. Yes, I am an idiot. kick me. But please let me start over.
embarrassed: Steve Buffington

 

[SJ318]

Re: 4th position or "notch quack" question

HI,
Now that I have corrected a dumb mistake, I do have 57/62 pickups from Fender as well as "69 style sc from Fender also. If I was to keep a Twangbanger in the neck or middle position, would it help to put a low wind in the middle or neck position. Which would be best with a Twangbanger? In which position to get a bit of quack sound with neck and middle?
I will try lowering my mid T.Banger -see if that helps. OK, I just lowered the mid Twangbanger a lot and it was brighter when played together with the neck TwangB. but still lacked that famous "4" position sound. Or 4th notch (mid + neck). However you call it.
Maybe it can't be done with a TwangBanger.

 

[gregory]

Re: 4th position or "notch quack" question

Some guys will call that position 2, though I'm not one of them.

A5 slugs, identical pickups, bright, vintage output.

 

[SJ318]

Re: 4th position or "notch quack" question

gregory:
I believe you are correct. I will use my Twangbangers on my guitars that have 2 pickups only, like my Strat with the hybrid bridge and TBanger middle. Also my other Strat with a Jazz bridge and a TBanger neck. I know the TB. sounds good to me when played together with a humbucker, in the middle or in the neck. It doesn't get a "notch" sound but it does sound very nice to my ears. A very nice chime like rhythm sound and alternative lead sound.
I have one Strat left that is not together. Just parts. I will make a project out of that. Bummer, I like the strength and sound of the TB separately, but they just have to much power to ever get that 2,4 position sound together. I believe the '69 Fender SC.'s are A5 and I know they are low wind. Maybe use them in the a new Parts guitar for neck and middle, and a leftover TB. in the bridge slot.
Thanks all for your input. and sorry for the confusion my original post caused. I do appreciate and read everyones' input!
Steve Buffington.

 

[gregory]

Re: 4th position or "notch quack" question

If I needed a guitar to do a Strat/Tele-type thing I'd go with a twangbanger in the bridge with a pair of ssl1s.

I dig the sound of a Tele with an SH-2 in the neck. Despite grumbling, I do like the SH-2, just not for shreddy single note solos. It's great for tight crunchy rock rhythm and leadwork, too. The Jazz neck has a nice clear glassy and full sound. Classic.

 

[SJ318]

Re: 4th position or "notch quack" question

gregory-
Yes, I am surprised that set, neck or bridge, doesn't get much press. I bought the set on purpose for use with a HSS style guitar. I wound up using the bridge model Jazz and it is easily adjustable for more "sparkle" or less. That is the one where I use my TBanger in the neck with. They are a great match (better make sure I re-read this for any errors!) - and the 8K copper plate neck p'up sounds terrific with the Jazz-b. One of the reasons I keep going on so long about TBangers.
I bet it the Jazzb sounds close to a low wind real '59 PAF. (Even with it's polished mag). I also bet it takes mag swaps well.
I bet an RC A5 or A4 would sound great in either Jazz p'up's. Yes, my 2 cents again.
Steve Buffington

 

[AlexR]

Re: 4th position or "notch quack" question

The TB of course is for the bridge....and it doesn't do the 2 posi that badly at all combined with a nice low output middle. I would find it odd for that pickup to be anywhere else but the bridge unless you're pairing it with a hot humbucker.....but I'm all about low output vintage pickups in every guitar.

 

[SJ318]

Re: 4th position or "notch quack" question

AlexR-
Agreed, I knew I would be using a hot bridge H-Bucker. I did it first for a stage guitar, and knowing I wanted an extra sound, one with more sparkle/highs for rhythm, I started with a 57/62, but it was too weak. I didn't want an HB in the neck. When I read about the TB, I knew it would sound better AND that at 8.3K the "copper plate" might save it from overwound single coil dullness. It was so good with that set up, I've been an unpaid spokesman for the TB ever since.
It sounded so good to me I put it in my other "stage" guitar, only in the middle with the TB, and hot HB bridge.
I couldn't stand how the JB wouldn't clean up, so before I found the hybrid I was using my fave pup, the Seth L. for stage work. While I tried to get the best of both worlds, it was Mincer who suggested the hybrid, and I, with other forum members chiming in helpfully, struck up a long conversation, a detailed look at what I wanted, so it was a gamble as the JB was 16K, ad the hybrid was 11K, but I finally did it and the hybrid is so good for loud bands and great at low volume cleans. So after all the info I have gotten from this post, I will make myself a new Partocaster with 2 single coil pup's - lower wind neck and middle, with either a Jazz bridge, or a Seth with a RC A5 mag. not sure exactly what, but that will be the goal, and it will be a home guitar, for my pleasure. So 2 and 4 positions will sound great.
Thank you for posting, and for your time, everyone.
Steve Buffington

 

[AlexR]

Re: 4th position or "notch quack" question

Its one of the ways that the jack of all trades is master of none. And I agree that when pairing pickups that you must really get the primary tones you want right......and just live with the rest being what they are. In a lot of ways I feel for your condition - in that you cannot simply buy any old guitar to make it right for various different scenarios - and must have fewer more carefully selected guitars that do a few things.

 

[Mincer]

Re: 4th position or "notch quack" question

Its one of the ways that the jack of all trades is master of none. And I agree that when pairing pickups that you must really get the primary tones you want right......and just live with the rest being what they are. In a lot of ways I feel for your condition - in that you cannot simply buy any old guitar to make it right for various different scenarios - and must have fewer more carefully selected guitars that do a few things.

This is sort of what I follow. Let tone and technique take you the rest of the way. I tend to go for 'jack of all trades' guitars, rather than specialized instruments. I hate carrying lots of guitars (or maintaining them at home). So I get my basic tones right, and fudge the rest. Then, I practice and don't get too hung up on it.

 

[SJ318]

Re: 4th position or "notch quack" question

AlexR and Mincer -
No worries. On stage the "notch" position would be something that would not be useful in the band I am in. There is not enough subtleties for my taste so I was just going for a guitar that would work on stage like I already have: A Strat with a Hybrid bridge pup, and a middle TBanger (no neck pup) that when used together create a nice strong sound, not quite single coil, and less than , but brighter than, a humbucker. I was hoping if I put another TBnger in the neck I could get a notch sound for fun at home only.
But after all of your responses it sounds unlikely I can make that happen without TWO low wind single coils. So that will be what I will do. I rarely get to play live. Last studio playing I did was 3 years ago.
I might try a low wind '69 in the NECK, TBanger in the Middle, and Hybrid in the bridge because I already know the hybrid and middle TB work great on stage. So if I can coax a notch sound from the 2 single coils, I'll be fine. If not, then I'll go full single coil, low wind neck,middle and TBanger in the bridge. If there is a better lead Single coil for the bridge, I am all ears, as I am a huge novice when it comes to single coils. I know I dislike stacked because they all have sounded dull to me.
Thanks for all your help, I have learned a lot from this post, seriously
Steve Buffington

 

[Mincer]

Re: 4th position or "notch quack" question

I am not partial to bridge single coils, so I'd be the wrong one to ask, but I will say when you split the Hybrid to the Custom coil, it sounds great.

 

[freefrog]

Re: 4th position or "notch quack" question

Late to the party but... That quacky 2d or 4th position can be improved and even emulated thx to other tricks.

PM me if needed, Steve.

 

[SJ318]

Re: 4th position or "notch quack" question

Yes,
I also don't like Single coils in the bridge. I even tried a SSL-5 and it sounded like a musical "hammer" - If that makes me sound like an inflexible hard head, then so be it. I just need that humbucker feel. Oddly enough, I love a single coil mid or neck pickup. Example; my love of Twangbangers in those positions.
Freefrog, thanks for the offer and I might take you up on it, but first I must try a low wind A5 neck with my lowered middle TwangBanger and see if that will do the trick. I have 57/62's and '69's to try in the neck slot. I think the 57/62's are A2's and the 69's are A5's, and have been advised to try the A5 over the A2 poles. So once more into the breach, armed with my soldering iron in my left hand, and good intentions in my right.
Thank you all again,
Steve Buffington