5 pickups (SH-S-HS) in one guitar

[zeisse]

Hi All,
I'm working on modification of my super strat (Yamaha RGX 721D) to make it universal for recording purpose.
Pickguard has been added (swiming pool milled in the body) so I can check different pickup configuration.
The idea was to have 2 mini humbuckers and 3 real single coils. 1 switch to select pickups mode (HSH or SSS), 1 switch to select humbucker wireing (series/single/parallel) and 5 position switch for selecting combination of pickup.

Single coils has been made by local maker (5.4k / 5.9k / 6.3k) Each coil with 4 wires (additional 1.4k which I don't use now). I'm not sure about polarity, but it was made to have noise cancelation between bridge / neck and middle / neck (bridge and middle have the same polarity, neck has oposit).

For humbuckers I decided to buy hot rails and little 59.

Everything works fine except hot rails. It sounded great when I checked it alone connected directly to the socket, but when all pickups are assembled it started be very muddy, with more unpleasant bass and less top.
I tested it on the left and right side of the SC. In both position sound is similar (bad) but when hot rails is closer to the bridge it sound very tin if switched to single mode (I believe this is because polarity "conflict" with single coil on the right side?)

I read about negative impact of pickups assembled so close to each other, but also read about many examples where it works just fine.
I cut pickguard to move hot rails about 1 centymeter away from the single coil but it doesn't help.

For some reason little 59 sounds preaty good with single coil almost glued to it. Why hot rails doesn't sound good?
I read somewere that pickup with rails may not working with single coil. Is it make sense? That would be explenation why little 59 sounds good.

Any ideas? Should I check other pickup?

 

[zeisse]

Re: 5 pickups (SH-S-HS) in one guitar

In case if the problem is related with wiring below you may find it:

 

[allstarrme]

Re: 5 pickups (SH-S-HS) in one guitar

What pot values are you using? What does the output resistance read when the hot rails is selected?

It almost sounds like it’s in series with one of the other coils. Also a 250k pot will cut some of the highs off, compared to a 500k.

That’s a pretty interesting and somewhat complex setup. Got any actual pictures of the wiring?

 

[Mincer]

Re: 5 pickups (SH-S-HS) in one guitar

The only negative I can think of (and this would be bad for live performance), is that it would take a few moves to get to a particular sound. I think I might live with a setup like this for a year or so, then just hardwire the sounds you actually use, so you have instant access to them.

 

[zeisse]

Re: 5 pickups (SH-S-HS) in one guitar

What pot values are you using? What does the output resistance read when the hot rails is selected?

It almost sounds like it’s in series with one of the other coils. Also a 250k pot will cut some of the highs off, compared to a 500k.

That’s a pretty interesting and somewhat complex setup. Got any actual pictures of the wiring?

I have 500k with bypass (push/pull). The problem is present also when pot is bypassed.
Resistance measured on output socket is 16.16k.
I Don't have now any pictures showing wiring. I will do when remove pickguard. Diagram attached to my prevoius post is exactly how it is assembled.

 

[zeisse]

Re: 5 pickups (SH-S-HS) in one guitar

The only negative I can think of (and this would be bad for live performance), is that it would take a few moves to get to a particular sound. I think I might live with a setup like this for a year or so, then just hardwire the sounds you actually use, so you have instant access to them.

It is true if you want to mix different pickups in one song, but if you want just change from classic strat to modern super strat it is only 1 move. When the switch is down you have HSH with 5 positions (like Ibanez or any similar), when the switch is up you have classic strat SSS with 5 positions (second position like telecaster). With additional switch for humbucker wiring you can go from series to parallel (single is there only because the switch has 3 positions).

I agree that for live performing 5 most usable combinations is better, but for home recording switches are not a problem.

 

[zeisse]

Re: 5 pickups (SH-S-HS) in one guitar

This is how it looks with test pickguard.
I was looking for optimal (subjective) position for pot and blade switch, so it was cut several times. When I find final positions will order new pickguard.

 

[ehdwuld]

Re: 5 pickups (SH-S-HS) in one guitar

to get a combintation of 250K pots and 500K pots

you can use all 500K
then on the single coils
put another 500k resistor to ground

this will make the single coils see the 500K pots
as 250K pots
the taper of the pots may be a bit off

 

[Mincer]

Re: 5 pickups (SH-S-HS) in one guitar

It is kinda Steve Morse-y. I dig it.

 

[d2718]

Re: 5 pickups (SH-S-HS) in one guitar

You posted the schematic, and I thought, "Screw the schematic. I wanna see an actual photo of this beast!" Thanks for including one.

You don't have any problems with all those magnets pulling on the strings?

 

[zeisse]

Re: 5 pickups (SH-S-HS) in one guitar

You posted the schematic, and I thought, "Screw the schematic. I wanna see an actual photo of this beast!" Thanks for including one.

You don't have any problems with all those magnets pulling on the strings?

I didn't noticed any change with sustain after move from HSS to SHAHS. Bridge is blocked by the way.

 

[zeisse]

Re: 5 pickups (SH-S-HS) in one guitar

Any ideas what else I could check or change?
What is your experience with pickups assembled so close to each other?
Why does it work for Steve Morse?

 

[Mincer]

Re: 5 pickups (SH-S-HS) in one guitar

Any ideas what else I could check or change?
What is your experience with pickups assembled so close to each other?
Why does it work for Steve Morse?

Well, from what he has said, it works for SM because he needs several sounds quickly. His switching scheme is really quirky, but it works for him. He also switches things about a dozen times within a solo. So it works for him as his purpose is different than yours (recording vs live), and I think he can't get every combination of coils, but it is hard wired to quickly get the sounds he uses.

 

[freefrog]

Re: 5 pickups (SH-S-HS) in one guitar

Hi All,
I'm working on modification of my super strat (Yamaha RGX 721D) to make it universal for recording purpose.
Pickguard has been added (swiming pool milled in the body) so I can check different pickup configuration.
The idea was to have 2 mini humbuckers and 3 real single coils. 1 switch to select pickups mode (HSH or SSS), 1 switch to select humbucker wireing (series/single/parallel) and 5 position switch for selecting combination of pickup.

Single coils has been made by local maker (5.4k / 5.9k / 6.3k) Each coil with 4 wires (additional 1.4k which I don't use now). I'm not sure about polarity, but it was made to have noise cancelation between bridge / neck and middle / neck (bridge and middle have the same polarity, neck has oposit).

For humbuckers I decided to buy hot rails and little 59.

Everything works fine except hot rails. It sounded great when I checked it alone connected directly to the socket, but when all pickups are assembled it started be very muddy, with more unpleasant bass and less top.
I tested it on the left and right side of the SC. In both position sound is similar (bad) but when hot rails is closer to the bridge it sound very tin if switched to single mode (I believe this is because polarity "conflict" with single coil on the right side?)

I read about negative impact of pickups assembled so close to each other, but also read about many examples where it works just fine.
I cut pickguard to move hot rails about 1 centymeter away from the single coil but it doesn't help.

For some reason little 59 sounds preaty good with single coil almost glued to it. Why hot rails doesn't sound good?
I read somewere that pickup with rails may not working with single coil. Is it make sense? That would be explenation why little 59 sounds good.

Any ideas? Should I check other pickup?

Hello,

Magnetic interactions can have unexpected effects. I clearly remember an experiment with a SSL5 whose tone was totally corrupted by the proximity of a bar magnet.

Now, in your case, I tend to think that the HR sounds muddy mainly by contrast with the single coil next to it.

A Hot Rails has an enormous inductance: almost 12H. It's 3 times more than a regular HB and it's SIX times more than a weak Single coil (like a Fender CS69). And the highest the inductance, the darkest the tone tends to be...

IOW, you've two drastically different pickups next to each other and when the amp is dialed to sound good with the SC, it has to sound dark/muddy with the HR, especially if this HR is far from the bridge...

I'd try again with the HR closer to the bridge but maybe I'd flip it (putting under the bass strings the side which is now under the treble strings).

I'd also avoid to split the Hot Rails. I'd rather use a series / parallel switch with it, for a simple reason: A Hot Rails in parallel has almost the inductance of a moderately strong single coil, so its tone should be less shocking compared to the sound of its SC neighbour.

Or I'd split it only to put it in series with the SC, in order to obtain a kind of "wide humbucker": after all, this kind of wiring worked for Brian May...

FWIW. Do what you want and be happy. Good luck...

 

[zeisse]

Re: 5 pickups (SH-S-HS) in one guitar

Magnetic interactions can have unexpected effects. I clearly remember an experiment with a SSL5 whose tone was totally corrupted by the proximity of a bar magnet.

Is it mean that replaceing Hot rails (bar magnet) with something like JB jr. may give better results?

I'd try again with the HR closer to the bridge but maybe I'd flip it (putting under the bass strings the side which is now under the treble strings).

Will check it and post results here.

I'd also avoid to split the Hot Rails.

I'm going to use only series / parallel. Split to single coil is there only because I have toogle switch witch 3 positions.

 

[freefrog]

Re: 5 pickups (SH-S-HS) in one guitar

Is it mean that replaceing Hot rails (bar magnet) with something like JB jr. may give better results?

The JB Jr. also contains a bag mag, AFAIK. What differs is its pole pieces and, potentially, how they convey the magnetic field compared to a pair of blades.

That said, the main problem here is the "natural" inconsistency of magnetism, IMHO. Two magnets from the same batch charged in the same way during the same time CAN exhibit different mag fields.

So, if I had your guitar here + a JB Jr., I would test the pickups with our lab Teslameter. As I can't do that, I can't reply seriously either to your question, sorry. :-/


Let us know if the HR closer to the bridge and flipped sounds better...

 

[zeisse]

Re: 5 pickups (SH-S-HS) in one guitar

Hi,
quick update.
I've flipped and moved HR closer to the bridge. It sounds much better. I was really happy till I noticed that SC next to the HR sounds weak.
String E6 is much quieter than others. Looks like pole pieces has been demagnetized (probably touched bar of HR during swaping ;()
Now I'm not sure how big impact to improved sound has this demagnetized pole pieces.

I've ordered magnets to re-magnetize this Single Coil pickup. Will let you know results.
I hope this one pole piece will not impact sound of HR ...