5 way superswitch H-S-H advice

Re: 5 way superswitch H-S-H advice

Thanks for your reply, I never thought to ask about that but parallel is what I was hoping for. I'm still pretty much set on that wiring diagram above for that guitar, except that I was thinking about adding a treble bleed on the volume push pull pot as there's room for it, and it could be a good option to have. Satriani's JS signature has that option, but this would be combining activating the treble bleed and also the middle single coil at the same time (which wouldn't be an issue for me).

I've got another H-S-H guitar that might be getting a refret very soon and I thought it might be a good time to expand it's wiring and do something similar for the other guitar. But I thought it might be good to consider some different options and then over time, see which ones I like more.

But I'm not sure if this idea would be possible or not.

I was thinking that it could be good to match the outputs sort of like a "high output HB mode" and a "low output SC mode" matching the volume of all 5 positions on the switch as much as possible. And having the positions 2 and 4 in HB mode being in series instead of parallel. And also.. wondering if there would be a way to remove positions 2, 3 and 4 from the tone control, so that the tone control would only control positions 1 and 5 on the switch. Or if this wouldn't be possible because it would require an extra pole on the superswitch which wouldn't be available? The idea of the removing the tone control isn't really necessary for the idea below.. but it could be really useful for the standard H S H setup of position 1 and 5 being HB in series and the others being in parallel or lower output pickups (when there is no splitting or push pulls etc). Especially since I like to drop the height of the middle SC which drops the output even further.

The idea I had for this other guitar is..

Tone knob push pull down (High output mode)

Position 1 - Full Bridge HB
Position 2 - Bridge split + middle in series
Position 3 - Both HB's split in series
Position 4 - Neck split + middle in series
Position 5 - Full Neck HB

Tone knob push pull up (low output mode)

Position 1 - Bridge split
Position 2 - Bridge split + middle in parallel
Position 3 - Both HB's split in parallel
Position 4 - Neck split + middle in parallel
Position 5 - Neck split

Volume knob push pull up

Position 3 - Middle single coil + treble bleed

With the tone knob being used for all positions. (Just to clarify, the tone knob in positions 2,3,4 was an idea I had before coming up with this one above, which seems to remove the need for it).

I'm not sure if this would be possible, but I thought I'd ask anyway as I really like the idea of how matched the outputs would be and I'd probably be able to use a vintage 6k single coil without any perceived volume drop? Would this be possible via the 4 poles on the superswitch? In some ways, I think this could be the perfect wiring for the way I use my guitars.
 
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Re: 5 way superswitch H-S-H advice

CB434 said:
Thanks for your reply, I never thought to ask about that but parallel is what I was hoping for. I'm still pretty much set on that wiring diagram above for that guitar, except that I was thinking about adding a treble bleed on the volume push pull pot as there's room for it, and it could be a good option to have. Satriani's JS signature has that option, but this would be combining activating the treble bleed and also the middle single coil at the same time (which wouldn't be an issue for me).

I've got another H-S-H guitar that might be getting a refret very soon and I thought it might be a good time to expand it's wiring and do something similar for the other guitar. But I thought it might be good to consider some different options and then over time, see which ones I like more.

But I'm not sure if this idea would be possible or not.

I was thinking that it could be good to match the outputs sort of like a "high output HB mode" and a "low output SC mode" matching the volume of all 5 positions on the switch as much as possible. And having the positions 2 and 4 in HB mode being in series instead of parallel. And also.. wondering if there would be a way to remove positions 2, 3 and 4 from the tone control, so that the tone control would only control positions 1 and 5 on the switch. Or if this wouldn't be possible because it would require an extra pole on the superswitch which wouldn't be available? The idea of the removing the tone control isn't really necessary for the idea below.. but it could be really useful for the standard H S H setup of position 1 and 5 being HB in series and the others being in parallel or lower output pickups (when there is no splitting or push pulls etc). Especially since I like to drop the height of the middle SC which drops the output even further.

The idea I had for this other guitar is..

Tone knob push pull down (High output mode)

Position 1 - Full Bridge HB
Position 2 - Bridge split + middle in series
Position 3 - Both HB's split in series
Position 4 - Neck split + middle in series
Position 5 - Full Neck HB

Tone knob push pull up (low output mode)

Position 1 - Bridge split
Position 2 - Bridge split + middle in parallel
Position 3 - Both HB's split in parallel
Position 4 - Neck split + middle in parallel
Position 5 - Neck split

Volume knob push pull up

Position 3 - Middle single coil + treble bleed

With the tone knob being used for all positions. (Just to clarify, the tone knob in positions 2,3,4 was an idea I had before coming up with this one above, which seems to remove the need for it).

I'm not sure if this would be possible, but I thought I'd ask anyway as I really like the idea of how matched the outputs would be and I'd probably be able to use a vintage 6k single coil without any perceived volume drop? Would this be possible via the 4 poles on the superswitch? In some ways, I think this could be the perfect wiring for the way I use my guitars.
Click to expand...

Hmmm... interesting idea. I'm sure it's doable, but right now not sure if it can be done with the current switches. I MIGHT have some time this weekend to play with it, but hard to make any promises!


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Re: 5 way superswitch H-S-H advice

Thanks for your reply Briguy. That'd be awesome if you could have a look and see what's possible.

Keep in mind, it'd be at least a few weeks before I'd be putting this guitar in to be refretted, it might even be a month or two, so there is plenty of time to explore some options. I figured that if I was getting it refretted, it'd be easier to let the luthier also do the new wiring, and that having it planned in advance with a diagram would make it easier to communicate everything. As it's not a conventional wiring and a bit more complex. I still plan to solder in the wiring diagram from a few months ago into the other guitar, once I narrow down the pickup choice, which I still can't decide. I've never had a guitar with these options before and I'm hoping that after I get it all sorted out, I could use them for a few months and figure out which options I use more than others. Which could help with future projects.

If there is one thing I could add to the post above, is that in this case I'd prefer to sacrifice the hum cancelling of the combined positions, in favour of being able to use the PRS style split resistors to ground for both pickups. I do have strats but I'd like to have SC tones on a guitar that has 24 frets and FR bridge, and would like them to sound beefier/closer to single coil with those resistors, with output closer to 6k, compared to the regular neck split (one coil 4K). And that this would be a higher priority than the hum cancelling on the middle position which probably won't be used as much. I wish there could be a way to have both hum cancelling and also the split resistors on both pickups, for example splitting different coils for position 3 only but it just doesn't seem like there is a way given the limited number of poles and switches.

The pickups I want to use for the idea above are SD Pegasus bridge, SD Sentient neck and a vintage Suhr or SD SC with south top, but I could use north top if needed. I would prefer if the HB coils are split similar to the diagram above, but if the coil split resistor would be used on the neck, I guess the lower coil would need to be used. If it helped make it easier to wire, some flexibility of position 3 would be easier to compromise, as I'd like to have the positions 2 and 4 series, and then parallel with the push pull, but I understand that sometimes it's not that simple.

I never thought of those options above until now and not sure if it's possible but, or if there'd need to be compromises, but I appreciate any help you can give as it goes a bit beyond my understanding in terms of what is possible and what isn't. Your help is much appreciated.
 
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Re: 5 way superswitch H-S-H advice

BriGuy1968, I sent a PM just now, regarding the original diagram you did, and changes I want to make in terms of reversing the split so that the bridge splits to the screw coil and the neck splits to the slug coil. And how to go about drawing that in the diagram, as I am not sure if there needs to be changes on the switch or not, or just reversing the wires of the black, and red and white. It went into more detail than that, but I'm not sure if the PM sent, as my sent items box in my PM's is empty. I could type it out again if needed, just not sure if it sent or not.
 
Re: 5 way superswitch H-S-H advice

CB434 said:
BriGuy1968, I sent a PM just now, regarding the original diagram you did, and changes I want to make in terms of reversing the split so that the bridge splits to the screw coil and the neck splits to the slug coil. And how to go about drawing that in the diagram, as I am not sure if there needs to be changes on the switch or not, or just reversing the wires of the black, and red and white. It went into more detail than that, but I'm not sure if the PM sent, as my sent items box in my PM's is empty. I could type it out again if needed, just not sure if it sent or not.
Click to expand...

Looks like it's there, but my next few days are pretty booked and long. Hope it's not a problem to wait until this weekend!


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Re: 5 way superswitch H-S-H advice

Bri, this is serious work! Thanks for doing this!
 
Re: 5 way superswitch H-S-H advice

Okay CB434... I have something for you!

First, in case anyone else is paying attention to the changes that have been happening along the way, in a nutshell CB434 asked me in his PM to reverse the splits (as mentioned above), but also that he is using DiMarzio pups (so different colors) and that he wanted the screw coils to the center (which, for DiMarzio, means the neck pickup is flipped).

So here it is... the latest (and final?) incarnation:

bf070ade31afcb389885119ac148103f.jpg


As usual, CB434, let me know if I missed anything or if you have any questions! [emoji41][emoji2]


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Re: 5 way superswitch H-S-H advice

Can't thank you enough Briguy1968. This diagram has turned out so well. :cool:

The guitar will get be getting some stainless steel frets (I've had for it 18 years and there's not much fret left) and can't wait to try out some of those combos after the wiring is done. The diagram is so clear and easy to read, and makes it easy to explain the options to the luthier, as it's a bit complicated to try and explain otherwise. Before asking about it here, I wouldn't have even thought these options were possible.

I made a few small changes to the diagram. Hopefully I didn't make any mistakes. It would help if you could give it a quick look, just to make sure nothing is wrong. I reversed the little diagram in the bottom left for the bridge pickup, in terms of which coil is split. And also added the coil split resistor for the neck pickup and treble bleed for the position 3 switch. Is everything ok with what I did?

HSHSuperprojectV3.jpg


I have a couple of other questions but nothing that affects the diagram itself, as I'm 100% happy, unless there is a mistake that's been overlooked. The main thing I wanted to ask, is that because the neck and bridge split to different coils (one slug, one screw) it gives noise/hum cancelling when both HB are combined. But does that mean that one of the in between positions will have hum when split and combined with the middle SC? If I have a south top SC in the middle, does that mean there will be hum in position 2, with middle SC and screw coil of bridge pickup? It's ok if this is the case, just wanted to double check.

And also.. is there much of an output increase when there is a full HB in parallel combined with the middle vs when it's split HB combined with middle? I'm trying to decide the output of the middle pickup.. I could go 6k vintage strat SC, 9k Ibanez stock SC, or 12k Evolution single coil. I was going to go with Evo SC, because it's designed to boost output in positions 2,3,4 to keep up with HB's. But I wonder if I could get away with a lower output.. due to the fact that there is 3 coils in the in between positions instead of 2? I don't know how much the output increases though. Or if it just changes the character of the sound? I lower the middle pickup quite low as well, to be out of the way when picking. In a strat situation, I have the middle pickup (vintage 6k) quite low to the pickguard, but without a tone control which boosts things a bit. But in this case, I don't think that's possible.

Thanks for the Dimarzio colour options as well, that helps simplify things. This makes everything a lot easier, and I'm really happy with how all of the options have turned out. It's a bit of a brainteaster but hopefully will be simpler to understand with guitar in hand. Thanks again.
 
Re: 5 way superswitch H-S-H advice

In terms of the SC, I got a set of 3 SC's on their way with a RWRP middle so that I have both options, and also leftover pickups for future projects. I went with vintage spec.

There is one thing that I am unsure about with the wiring though in terms of a potential problem. Hopefully I am worrying about nothing but feel better about double checking.

When both HB's are run together in position 3 and split with the tone knob push pull, the two HB's are split to different coils to give hum cancelling. The neck splits to north coil, and the bridge splits to south. Doesn't this mean that it'll make it hard to combine these split coils with a SC without problems? Or am I worrying about nothing?

Usually both HB's are split to the same coil, and the middle SC has the opposite polarity and winding direction of that coil. And if the split sounds are out of phase, the SC wires are reversed. But in this case, if position 2 is out of phase, and the middle SC wires are reversed, won't that just make it out of phase with position 4 instead? I would be happy to sacrifice hum cancelling in one of these positions (bridge/middle).. but would really prefer that both positions 2 and 4 be in phase, as the out of phase sound is weak and not very usable.

So I guess my question is.. in the way the diagram is currently drawn.. when both HB's are split and combined with a south top middle SC, can I expect hum cancelling and in phase in position 4, and no hum cancelling but in phase in position 2? Or will position 2 be no hum cancelling and out of phase?

One idea I had without changing the wiring, was to flip the magnets of the bridge HB, where I would then lose hum cancelling when both HB's are split and combined. But would this also make it out of phase though? I'd be happy to do that, if it means it solves this other issue, and could live with the hum, but wouldn't like that sound be out of phase either. And regardless of this issue, I don't want to change the wiring itself, as I am happy with splitting these specific coils in terms of the resistance of each coil.

With complex wiring like this, it seems there is always going to need to be compromises. I guess my question is, do I have this right and is this the right choice in terms of each compromise? Or is the position 2 of the split sounds, going to be in phase as it is? I don't mind if it hums. It's position 4 (neck/middle) that I want to be hum free. Hopefully I'm worrying about nothing, but I find the phase thing to be really confusing.
 
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Re: 5 way superswitch H-S-H advice

It DOES get confusing as you think about it more, but let me reassure you with an answer of...

"Yes... you are obsessing over nothing!" [emoji2]

You will not lose hum-canceling when using all three pups at once with the HBs split simply because the coils don't have to be balanced in order to cancel hum. You will, however, sacrifice hum-canceling in either 2 or 4, but ONLY when the coils are split. As for the phase reversal issue, my brain starts hurting when I try to think about that stuff... especially when mixing pickups. If it's OOP, then just reverse it and you'll be all set. In fact, I just had that exact issue when I was replacing the center pup of my own HSH this past weekend. The new pup was backward from the old and ended up OOP with the bridge. I just reversed the + and -, and it works great now.

It kinda comes down to this... where are you going to spend your time? Hum-canceling is awesome, but many times a little hum is not even noticeable unless you have some serious interference going on around you. I'm assuming that you'll spend most of your time with humbuckers instead of split, so the point is probably moot. Hum-canceling, like I say, is great... but it doesn't mean by any definition that the non-hum-canceling positions are unusable. [emoji6]


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Re: 5 way superswitch H-S-H advice

The way around this is to invest in a galvanometer and learn the art of polarity mapping. For noise cancellation in the intermediate positions the coil selected in the split HB needs to be the opposite magnetic polarity to the SC and the same electrical polarity. A simple NS bar magnetic or cheap compass can identify magnetic polarity but checking the pulse polarity of a coil is a bit trickier; you need a nice sensitive galvanometer with good needle damping so you can see clearly which way the needle kicks. I have used a centre zero AV meter in the past but some are better than others.

Incidentally it doesn't help to use terms like "out of phase" since it isn't strictly correct; phase is a measurement of the angular separation between waveforms and in any noise cancelling pair there are waveforms that have a phase relationship that is close to 0 degrees (so they sum and reinforce each other) and others that are close to 180 degrees (so they cancel each other out), while noise signals are not strictly in a 180 degree phase relationship but mirrored (i.e. turned upside-down). For symmetrical waveforms with a sinusoidal profile and a 1:1 mark/space ratio this may be the same thing (although even mains hum signals can contain harmonics) but for the kind of spike waveforms such as those pumped out by fluorescent lights and neons, it isn't. Technically, the signals induced by the strings in the "out of phase" positions aren't really out of phase (or in a 180 degree phase relationship) at all, it's the noise signals that are mirrored. So for "out of phase" read "noise cancelling".
 
Re: 5 way superswitch H-S-H advice

Thanks guys. It's a relief to know that it's a non issue.

I've used a simple compass for polarity in the past, but getting into the more advanced elements of it are out of my depth at the moment, but something I hope to learn and understand in time.

In this case a luthier will be wiring it in for me because the guitar is also getting a refret, so hopefully that smooths out the bumps and he can take care of the initial niggles like reversing the wires for the split positions. I just wanted to make it as smooth for him as possible in advance. At that point, once I receive it back.. I'll be able to use the guitar for a bit and see which modes I use the most, and how often the coil splits get used and work from there in terms of my preference. It's one thing to talk about this stuff on paper but another thing when it's in your hands and you're feeling everything while trying to play some music. I'm excited because Briguy.. you're initial diagrams have offered a lot of options and possibilities. For example, having both HB's combined, but also the middle SC. You've been a big help, and I can't thank you enough.

I have a second guitar of the same type, which will also be getting some pickup/wiring changes but at this point, I'm unsure. We talked about that other idea of a diagram in terms of series split positions vs parallel split positions, which I'm not sure if possible.. because it seems like it could be complicated. But it also may not be required. If this guitar works out well, it could be that I simply copy this wiring diagram a second time, or maybe make a small alteration based off the experience of playing it for a while and like you said.. seeing what options get used the most.

I agree that hum cancelling is a minor concern. Because I also have a vintage strat and have never been concerned with RWRP middle pickup. There's hum in all 5 positions, and I just consider that to be part of the strat experience. After it was shielded, it became possible to use it with higher gain levels as well. With these H/S/H guitars it gets a bit more complicated in terms of options, but hum cancelling for single coils aren't a necessity, they are usually used with low gain or clean tones anyway. Thanks again.
 
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