50’s vs Modern wiring

[Gtrjunior]

50’s vs Modern wiring

My Les Paul is wired 50’s style. I have noticed that when I roll back the volume it still remains bright. I know this is one of the pluses of 50’s wiring.
However, I kind of wish that it would darken up just a little bit but only on my bridge pickup.
Could this be accomplished by wiring the bridge pickup in modern wiring and leave the neck pickup 50’s style?
Or is there something I’m overlooking?

I have push/pull pots for tone wired to split each pickup (which I never use).

What would happen to the overall tone if I switched to a 250k tone pot for the bridge pickup?


How does everyone else have their wiring? Which do you prefer and why?

 

[dr.barlo]

Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

I prefer 500K 50's wiring... But I am using the tone pot quite heavily. And that's exactly what I suggest you do.

Because you can't create something when it's not there! To me, it refers to clarity in this application.



I can reduce the tone etc. if I want, but if the clarity is not there... no hope.

That's why I favor 50's wiring, it retains the clarity as the vol is reduced. And if tone adjustments are done simultaneous, it will do what you want it to.

So I say, leave it be and use it a lot to get used to how the circuit reacts.

B

 

[ehdwuld]

Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

Does the tone control not work?

 

[Chistopher]

Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

Yes, your idea could work and it's not the first time I've seen using 50s on the neck and standard on the bridge.

As for which one I prefer, I use to like 50s because I only ever used the volume and never the tone control, but now that I frequently have both on settings less than 10, the interactive nature of 50s wiring is too much to handle. If I have the tone rolled back and roll back the volume, chances are I'll have to fiddle with the tone, which depending on the settings might mean I'll have to fiddle with the volume again.

These days I prefer to put the time in and find which treble bleed works the best with a given guitar.

 

[GuitarStv]

Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

I find 50's wiring confusing. With 50s wiring the tone and volume pots work together and this can be confusing to use, especially live. Sometimes rolling the volume back will keep your tone, sometimes it'll roll off high end an awful lot, sometimes rolling the tone knob back will kill your volume.

My preference is for the volume control to control volume, and the tone control to control tone. You can get this by using modern wiring with a treble bleed. If I want the volume to be less, I roll back the volume (and the tone doesn't change). If I want the tone to be rolled off, I roll back the tone knob (and the volume doesn't change). If I have the tone at 50% I can keep the guitar sounding the same as I roll back the volume.

 

[PFDarkside]

Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

I’m glad Christopher and Steve have articulated the negatives to 50’s wiring. Usually it’s presented as the end all be all for Les Paul wiring. If you never use the tone it’s great to retain the treble as volume is rolled off. However the interactive nature when both are rolled off can be odd. Of course the modern method also has negatives as well. The good thing is it’s easy to try both pretty simply....

 

[Mincer]

Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

I am someone who doesn't like the overtly bright 50s wiring. I like the sound getting darker as I turn the volume down, as that is the sound I grew up with.

 

[Gtrjunior]

Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

I should have specified in my OP.

Yes Edwhuld, the tone control works....smarta$$!!
Lol

I’m primarily a hard rock, high gain type player. And I do (did prior to Covid) gig regularly.
In a live situation I’d like to not have to fiddle with both volume and tone knobs if I don’t have to.
In my situation I actually want the reduction in volume to be accompanied by a “slight” treble roll off.
I think GtrSteve and Christopher made great points with the nature of both types of wiring.
I think I might try the modern wiring only for the bridge pickup.

GtrSteve....what treble bleed value do you typically use or is there a value that you would recommend that would allow some of the treble to be lost as I roll off the volume?

The 50’s wiring sounds good with the exception of the fact that I feel it retains just a touch too much brightness in a low volume knob situation

 

[Gtrjunior]

Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

I am someone who doesn't like the overtly bright 50s wiring. I like the sound getting darker as I turn the volume down, as that is the sound I grew up with.

So you don’t use a treble bleed?

 

[dr.barlo]

Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

Yeah... the whole "interactive" thing needs some time to get used to. In my case, I've paid the sunk cost and hence favor that wiring. Meanwhile, I kinda see why it'd be a bit problematic. That's why I kinda tried to stress that in my original post.

It is quite easy to convert the 50's wiring to the modern style (and vice versa). So by all means, do try... It is all about tastes and getting used to certain ways.

B

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

I like 50's wiring on Gibson style guitars with humbucking pickups and modern wiring on Fender style guitars with single coil pickups.

50's wiring sound a bit too bright with single coils and modern wiring sounds a bit muddy with humbuckers when the volume control is turned down.

All a matter of personal preference and whatcha want to hear.

 

[Mincer]

Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

So you don’t use a treble bleed?

No way. Never liked any version of it.

 

[DavidRavenMoon]

Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

I find 50's wiring confusing. With 50s wiring the tone and volume pots work together and this can be confusing to use, especially live. Sometimes rolling the volume back will keep your tone, sometimes it'll roll off high end an awful lot, sometimes rolling the tone knob back will kill your volume.

My preference is for the volume control to control volume, and the tone control to control tone. You can get this by using modern wiring with a treble bleed. If I want the volume to be less, I roll back the volume (and the tone doesn't change). If I want the tone to be rolled off, I roll back the tone knob (and the volume doesn't change). If I have the tone at 50% I can keep the guitar sounding the same as I roll back the volume.

When I had an ‘81 LP Standard I wired it for master tone and put treble bleeds on the volumes. I put a Varitone midrange control in the remaining hole.

I might have also wired the volumes to be independent, but I forget.

I prefer one volume and tone on my guitars. But I rarely turn the volume down on the guitar.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Clint 55]

Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

I understand what you mean. Also, the darkening effect of the volume is different than tone. The resistance from volume dampens the entire signal and sounds differently than the capacitance from the tone which only cuts highs above the cap's cutoff. And how the volume functions can be important to rock playing. So yes, absolutely try either modern wiring or a 250k volume on the bridge if you think it might work for you.

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

When I do 50's wiring I don't go all out to be vintage accurate.

For 50's wiring I connect the tone control to the output of the volume pot. The middle lug. So the tone control is AFTER the volume pot.

For Modern wiring I connect the tone control to the input of the volume pot. The first lug. So the tone control is BEFORE the volume pot.

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

When I do 50's wiring I don't go all out to be vintage accurate.

For 50's wiring I connect the tone control to the output of the volume pot. The middle lug. So the tone control is AFTER the volume pot.

For Modern wiring I connect the tone control to the input of the volume pot. The first lug. So the tone control is BEFORE the volume pot.

Here's a diagram showing true 50's wiring vs. modern wiring. Look at the difference between the way the tone control is wired. I don't always do that.

 

[Gtrjunior]

50’s vs Modern wiring

50’s vs Modern wiring

I understand what you mean. Also, the darkening effect of the volume is different than tone. The resistance from volume dampens the entire signal and sounds differently than the capacitance from the tone which only cuts highs above the cap's cutoff. And how the volume functions can be important to rock playing. So yes, absolutely try either modern wiring or a 250k volume on the bridge if you think it might work for you.

I was running a 250k pot for the last few years but once I switched the bridge pickup I wanted the 500k back in there. I love how it sounds with the volume full open it’s just too bright when I roll back.
It makes me feel like I don’t want to “dig in” when I need to.

But yes, you’re absolutely right about the tone knob sound being different then the rolled back darkening effect.

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

I was running a 250k pot for the last few years but once I switched the bridge pickup I wanted the 500k back in there. I love how it sounds with the volume full open it’s just too bright when I roll back.
It makes me feel like I don’t want to “dig in” when I need to.

It yes, you’re absolutely right about the tone knob sound being different then the rolled back darkening effect.

I play mostly PRS guitars these days. One volume and one tone and a LP style 3-way pickup selector switch is how I have them wired.

I don't need a tone control on my neck pickup so on two of my guitars it's disconnected when I use the neck pickup only. Makes it a little clearer.

But I HAVE to have a tone control on my bridge pickup, regardless of what kind of pickup or guitar it is.

I like to turn the tone down to a certain sweet spot and then use a Dover Drive or Klon KTR to get those Clapton Woman Tones or Eric Johnson's violin tones. Gotta have a tone control for that.

And if the tone control is disconnected from the neck pickup I can leave the tone set for that "sweet spot" when I switch to the bridge pickup.

Works well for me.

 

[GuitarStv]

Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

GtrSteve....what treble bleed value do you typically use or is there a value that you would recommend that would allow some of the treble to be lost as I roll off the volume?

This is going to be dependent upon your setup . . . so the capacitance (and length) of the cables you use, the pickups you use, etc. I'd really recommend you buy 3-4 dollars worth of capacitors/resistors and alligator clips and spend an afternoon playing around until you find something that your ears like the best.


That said, with my setup and single coils I usually like a 1.2nF cap in series with a 110 - 130k resistor. This keeps the brightness pretty consistent as I roll back the volume and doesn't mess up the volume pot taper too much. (If you do the resistor and cap in parallel you'll notice that this changes the taper of the volume pot, which may or may not matter to you.)

A bigger cap value sets the range of treble as you roll down (larger value, more mids . . . smaller value you get just the highest of highs). The smaller the resistor value the louder this preserved treble will sound, the larger the resistor value the less treble you'll hear as you roll down. So, I'd suggest you start with 1.2nF cap and then maybe a 150 or 160k resistor if you still want the treble to mellow out a little as you roll back. But get a range of different values to play with to find what works for you.

 

[Gtrjunior]

Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

This is going to be dependent upon your setup . . . so the capacitance (and length) of the cables you use, the pickups you use, etc. I'd really recommend you buy 3-4 dollars worth of capacitors/resistors and alligator clips and spend an afternoon playing around until you find something that your ears like the best.


That said, with my setup and single coils I usually like a 1.2nF cap in series with a 110 - 130k resistor. This keeps the brightness pretty consistent as I roll back the volume and doesn't mess up the volume pot taper too much. (If you do the resistor and cap in parallel you'll notice that this changes the taper of the volume pot, which may or may not matter to you.)

A bigger cap value sets the range of treble as you roll down (larger value, more mids . . . smaller value you get just the highest of highs). The smaller the resistor value the louder this preserved treble will sound, the larger the resistor value the less treble you'll hear as you roll down. So, I'd suggest you start with 1.2nF cap and then maybe a 150 or 160k resistor if you still want the treble to mellow out a little as you roll back. But get a range of different values to play with to find what works for you.

Great info. Thank you!

First thing I’m going to do is wire the bridge pickup in modern style and see what that gives me.
If that’s a no-go I’ll experiment a bit as you laid out here.
Thanks again man.