50’s vs Modern wiring

[GuitarStv]

Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

Just an aside, treble bleeds work great with most overdrive and amp distortion . . . . but they suck hairy balls if a big part of your sound is using a fuzz face and rolling the volume back to clean up. This particular circuit combo doesn't play nicely together and will be shrill (fuzz face with volume full up sounds fine though).

 

[GuitarDoc]

Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

I find 50's wiring confusing. With 50s wiring the tone and volume pots work together and this can be confusing to use, especially live. Sometimes rolling the volume back will keep your tone, sometimes it'll roll off high end an awful lot, sometimes rolling the tone knob back will kill your volume.

You're not going to get that from 50s wiring and independent volumes...results are very consistent. If you indeed have 50s wiring you probably have dependent volumes. Or you just had everything wired incorrectly.

 

[GuitarDoc]

Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

I understand what you mean. Also, the darkening effect of the volume is different than tone. The resistance from volume dampens the entire signal and sounds differently than the capacitance from the tone which only cuts highs above the cap's cutoff. And how the volume functions can be important to rock playing. So yes, absolutely try either modern wiring or a 250k volume on the bridge if you think it might work for you.

Uh oh. I find myself agreeing more with Clint lately. I guess I'm going to have to schedule another session with my analyst.

 

[GuitarDoc]

Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

When I do 50's wiring I don't go all out to be vintage accurate.

For 50's wiring I connect the tone control to the output of the volume pot. The middle lug. So the tone control is AFTER the volume pot.

For Modern wiring I connect the tone control to the input of the volume pot. The first lug. So the tone control is BEFORE the volume pot.

So, you do like dependent volumes with either 50's or modern tone wiring.

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

So, you do like dependent volumes with either 50's or modern tone wiring.

Sure. My ES-335 is that kind of guitar. Like a Les Paul or SG. Two volumes, two tones.

But I prefer one volume, one tone guitars. All of my PRS guitars are one volume, one tone.

And my Teles are one volume, one tone.

And now that I think of it, both my Strats are set up that way too. One volume, one tone.

When I play my ES-335 I like to combine pickups and blend the two together with the two volume controls.

But I don't miss not being able to do that with my one volume, one tone guitars.

 

[Chistopher]

Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

As far as I know, the original Gibson wiring was 50s wiring with independent volumes. They later removed the independent part, and even later switched to modern wiring. That's what the local luthier/vintage stringed instrument collector says any way.

As far as I'm concerned vintage 50s wiring makes no sense at all. You'd get the dark bassy sound from rolling back the volume that you get from the independent wiring and you get the interactivity of the 50s wiring.

That's what's referred to as a Jack of no trades situation.

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

So, you do like dependent volumes with either 50's or modern tone wiring.

Did I misunderstand your question?

I tend to like 50's wiring with humbuckers and "Modern" wiring with bright single coil guitars like Strats and Teles.

And my ES-335 is wired so if I turn the volume of either pickup all the way to zero both pickups are "off".

Is that "dependent volume"?

If so, yes. I prefer that on two pickup guitars with a volume control for each pickup.

When I was a kid and didn't know anything I accidently rewired a real '56 Les Paul "wrong" so that when I turned the volume all the way down on one pickup it did not affect the volume of the other pickup.

I guess that would be "independent volumes"?

I didn't like it and never made that "mistake" again.

Maybe just because it wasn't what I was used to.

 

[GuitarDoc]

Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

And my ES-335 is wired so if I turn the volume of either pickup all the way to zero both pickups are "off".

Is that "dependent volume"?

Yes.

If so, yes. I prefer that on two pickup guitars with a volume control for each pickup.

When I was a kid and didn't know anything I accidently rewired a real '56 Les Paul "wrong" so that when I turned the volume all the way down on one pickup it did not affect the volume of the other pickup.

I guess that would be "independent volumes"?

Yes

I didn't like it and never made that "mistake" again.

Maybe just because it wasn't what I was used to.

That's probably it. Most of my earliest guitars, in the 60's (330, LP, SG), were two-pick-up Gibsons. I changed the wiring to 50's, independent volumes just to see how it differed. I've been playing with all my guitars wired that way ever since and am very used to it. I've tried a couple times to go back to the modern tone, dependent volumes wiring but I just can't get along with it. In fact it is very irritating to me...I feel that I don't have complete control over my guitars. It feels like my guitars are telling me what they are going to do rather than the other way around.

 

[GuitarDoc]

Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

As far as I'm concerned vintage 50s wiring makes no sense at all. You'd get the dark bassy sound from rolling back the volume that you get from the independent wiring and you get the interactivity of the 50s wiring.

That silly mixed up statement tells me that either you've never tried "50's tone, independent volumes" wiring, or you don't have a clue what it actually is...or both.

 

[GuitarDoc]

Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

Sure. My ES-335 is that kind of guitar. Like a Les Paul or SG. Two volumes, two tones.

But I prefer one volume, one tone guitars. All of my PRS guitars are one volume, one tone.

And my Teles are one volume, one tone.

And now that I think of it, both my Strats are set up that way too. One volume, one tone.

When I play my ES-335 I like to combine pickups and blend the two together with the two volume controls.

But I don't miss not being able to do that with my one volume, one tone guitars.

I totally get that. I like to blend neck and bridge pups with separate vol pots, but I also like the simplicity of just a master vol and tone control as well (I for sure don't like the Fender set up of master vol with separate tone pots for two of the pups and none for the third...that's just ridiculous to me and I would much rather prefer a master vol and a master tone control).

However, my favorite setup is two separate volumes (with 50's tone, independent volumes) and one master tone. I set up all of my custom builds this way including a tone bypass switch, unless a customer specifically requests something different, of course.

 

[GuitarStv]

Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

You're not going to get that from 50s wiring and independent volumes...results are very consistent. If you indeed have 50s wiring you probably have dependent volumes. Or you just had everything wired incorrectly.

It sounds like you've got this a bit confused. Although done on Gibsons this way, 50's wiring has nothing to do with multiple volume knobs. It's a way of connecting the volume and tone pots so that they become interactive with each other (each controlling what you would expect the other to do at different settings), and can be done (with the same inherent flaws/benefits depending on how you look at it) on guitars with a single volume, single tone. Volume pot dependence is a whole different thing.

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

I use 50's wiring, or "semi 50's wiring", strictly because I get a slightly clearer sound from a neck humbucking pickup when I turn the volume down.

But I don't like that effect with bright single coils. It sounds too crisp and bright to me.

So on my Strats and Teles I use "modern" wiring.

 

[Gtrjunior]

Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

So, I just made the wiring change. It’s not a HUGE difference but it’s a difference nonetheless.
Monday night is the next band rehearsal so I’ll have a better idea of the changes in that setting.

 

[Gtrjunior]

Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

I use 50's wiring, or "semi 50's wiring", strictly because I get a slightly clearer sound from a neck humbucking pickup when I turn the volume down.

But I don't like that effect with bright single coils. It sounds too crisp and bright to me.

So on my Strats and Teles I use "modern" wiring.

BTW.....I wanted to thank you for posting the above diagram showing the wiring difference in the 2 setups. I referenced it as I was working. It was very helpful. Thanks man!

 

[Chistopher]

Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

That silly mixed up statement tells me that either you've never tried "50's tone, independent volumes" wiring, or you don't have a clue what it actually is...or both.

That silly statement tells me you don't much use your controls. 50s wiring and decoupling your volume controls still results in treble loss when you roll the volume back more than 2-3 notches. This effect is exaggerated as you turn the tone control down. Decoupled volume controls have much greater output impedance making them darker when you turn down the volume control, 50s wiring cannot and will not ever be able to change that.

 

[GuitarDoc]

Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

It sounds like you've got this a bit confused.

No, not at all.

50's wiring has nothing to do with multiple volume knobs. It's a way of connecting the volume and tone pots

Absolutely. What, in any of my posts, made you think that I don't totally understand this? It's "independent" or "dependent" wiring that has to do with multiple volume pots. Has nothing to do with 50's tone wiring.

 

[GuitarDoc]

Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

That silly statement tells me you don't much use your controls. 50s wiring and decoupling your volume controls still results in treble loss when you roll the volume back more than 2-3 notches. This effect is exaggerated as you turn the tone control down. Decoupled volume controls have much greater output impedance making them darker when you turn down the volume control, 50s wiring cannot and will not ever be able to change that.

You can get back to me once you learn a little more about this and understand more than just presumed theory and have had more experience. I'm not going to be sucked into a pointless argument.

 

[Chistopher]

Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

If 50s wiring completely negated the only downside of independent volumes, trust me, we would have heard about it by now. I've always valued the SDUGF's accuracy when it comes to guitar related information, and you're compromising that.

 

[GuitarDoc]

Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

"Decoupled volume controls have much greater output impedance making them darker when you turn down the volume control".

So are you saying that greater impedance in a vol pot (or as in two independent vol pots in the circuit) makes the tone darker?!

Wow! I just learned something new. Teach me more. I want to know.

 

[GuitarStv]

Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

No, not at all.



Absolutely. What, in any of my posts, made you think that I don't totally understand this? It's "independent" or "dependent" wiring that has to do with multiple volume pots. Has nothing to do with 50's tone wiring.

The 'confused' bit is where you were telling me that 50's wiring doesn't make the volume and tone pots interactive with each other. You're completely wrong about that. It absolutely does, regardless of volume pot dependence. With 50's wiring, rolling back the volume if you've got the tone at 50% will change the tone output by the guitar in a very noticible manner. Rolling back the tone when your volume is set at 50% will drop the volume of the guitar in a very noticible manner.

You appeared to be unaware of this characteristic when you said that someone wouldn't get that from 50s wiring and independent volumes. You're certainly entitled to your own opinion as to whether or not this is a good change that is desirable in a guitar. You're not entitled to make up your own facts about this happening though.