5751 Preamp Tubes...

Re: 5751 Preamp Tubes...

No I didn't. You overrate yourself.

No need to be insulting, and You're right, I can only state the facts as they are true. What you do with them is up to you. If you are interested I can site many resources you can check out on your own time if you want to further your education into the subject matter.
 
Re: 5751 Preamp Tubes...

I've seen this stated before. All I can say is I've tried both the current production Tung Sol 5751 and the JJ 5751. The JJ was more to my liking as it made a more noticeable difference from the 12AX7 and accomplished exactly what I set out to do.

I've got Tungsol, JJ and Sovtek 5751's ... at the bottom of a box somewhere. Regardless, it doesn't matter what I think. Whatever works for you, works for you.
 
Re: 5751 Preamp Tubes...

No they are not all plug and play, Not in the sense they will both share the same q point with the same values for rk and ck. while it wil work in the sense that it will make sound, it has nothing to do with the method of biasing, but with the valve itself, (whether a fixed - v is applied to the grid, or resistively self biasing is used is irrelevant) most preamp tubes are actually cathode biased, with both the plate resistor and cathode resistor setting the quiescent operating point. They don't need to be adjusted so long as they are roughly the same type, like a 5751 and a 12ax7, however when switching to one of a different type, especially one with a much higher transconductance like a 12at7, the same values used for a 12ax7 do not reflect the same bias point or where the load sits in the grid curves. While you won't hurt anything, it's not a fair comparrison.

Take a look at the ep/ip charts for both the 12ax7, and a 12at7 and you. Will see the huge disparity between them.

Edit: the attached plate characteristics

http://www.jj-electronic.com/images/stories/product/preamplifying_tubes/pdf/ecc83s.pdf
http://www.jj-electronic.com/images/stories/product/preamplifying_tubes/pdf/ecc81.pdf

of course you are right, and i knew all that. but i still stand by my statement of plug and play. you can put a 12at7 into a socket designed for a 12ax7 and you will get sound, potentially a great sound, without changing any components. it is optimal? maybe not but it will work just fine
 
Re: 5751 Preamp Tubes...

So my preamp tubes arrived today in the mail....

I just cycled through the stock Fender/Groove Tube 12AX7, a TAD 12AX7, the J.J. 5751, & a E-H 12AT7, all in V1 of my Deluxe Reverb reissue.

The TAD didn't make any real noticeable difference in that (BIG SURPRISE!!!) but I replaced the J.J. 12AX7S I had in my Blackheart Lil Giant with it & not only is the amplifier more quiet while operating now, it sounds flipping fantastic in there!!!

The EH 12AT7 sounded good but it was kinda noisy/scratchy & the volume drop was more than I'd hoped for. Nevertheless I'm glad I got it because I'm sure I'll have to replace one of mine eventually & I didn't have any on hand before today ....



The 5751 on the other hand worked out great!!! There's a difference in volume like with the 12AT7 but it's not nearly as noticeable. The amplifier as a whole just seems to hold together better (especially in the low end) than before with it in & it's taking pedals much better as well!!! I'm guessing this is due to the way the 5751 shifted the midrange? It's not such a issue now but luckily my T.S. style O.D. has an active E.Q. so I can compensate for it but regular T.S.'s can sound pretty awful & shrill in front of the D.R.R.I.....

Overall it does have more clean headroom now which was basically what I was after but the real surprise is how much more I like the way it sounds cranked up!!! Obviously it's got less gain than before but I feel like it has more useable gain now if that makes any sense???
 
Re: 5751 Preamp Tubes...

of course you are right, and i knew all that. but i still stand by my statement of plug and play. you can put a 12at7 into a socket designed for a 12ax7 and you will get sound, potentially a great sound, without changing any components. it is optimal? maybe not but it will work just fine

Nobody is arguing whether or not sound will be produced, and on the other hand you can get a not so great sound too for the same reason, which still leaves the question of whether it is a fair comparison? Same applies to power tube types. Say we have a poweramp set up for 6l6's, (either fixed or cathode biased, doesn't really matter, but we will stick with cathode bias for sake of argument) and we wanted to stick a set of el34's in there just to try them to see how they sound. They are both common octal tubes, and sure they will fit in the same socket, and sound will likely be produced, but Since the 6l6 requires a much more negative grid voltage with respect to cathode than an el34 does in order to reflect a favorable idle plate current, and trusting the cathode biasing arrangement is chosen to reflect this, it will skew the operating point of the el34 if we were to just stick them in. While it will work, and the amp will make sound, and the icy cold bias won't hurt the el34, the el34's may be biased so cold, that it's barely conducting giving kind of a skewed perception of what it really sounds like or is capable of. It might sound not so bad in some cases, but terrible in others.

Likewise doing the opposite, and throwing in a 6l6 in for an amplifier set up for an el34 is likely a bad idea, and the valves would last mere minute before glowing a nice cherry red and dying. Of course this is an extreme example, but the same could also potentially happen to certain topologies using noval triodes too.
 
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Re: 5751 Preamp Tubes...

So my preamp tubes arrived today in the mail....The 5751 on the other hand worked out great!!!.......Overall it does have more clean headroom now which was basically what I was after but the real surprise is how much more I like the way it sounds cranked up!!! Obviously it's got less gain than before but I feel like it has more useable gain now if that makes any sense???
Exactly what my experience has been. Glad it worked for you as well.
 
Re: 5751 Preamp Tubes...

No need to be insulting, and You're right, I can only state the facts as they are true. What you do with them is up to you. If you are interested I can site many resources you can check out on your own time if you want to further your education into the subject matter.

I haven't cast any insults - I stated a fact. You didn't teach me anything I didn't know and to blindly assume you did is overrating yourself. However, talking down at other forum members is insulting and completely unwarranted, and proves my statement that you overrate yourself. I suggest you take a look at my age, learn how to spell the word "cite" and learn proper use of capitalization in a sentence before discussing furthering my education. Thanks.
 
Re: 5751 Preamp Tubes...

I haven't cast any insults - I stated a fact. You didn't teach me anything I didn't know and to blindly assume you did is overrating yourself. However, talking down at other forum members is insulting and completely unwarranted, and proves my statement that you overrate yourself. I suggest you take a look at my age, learn how to spell the word "cite" and learn proper use of capitalization in a sentence before discussing furthering my education. Thanks.

I will refer to your posts below.


Precisely why I said "hear something new" and not "learn something new."

I've never heard of biasing a 12AX7 V1 pre-tube before. Hear something new every day.
Now since my proficiency in English has been called into question, I will defer to you to decipher these cryptic passages above. From where I stand, both statements imply receiving new information of some sort. Now due to my deficiencies in the English language, of which you were so kind to point out, I guess I can't be too sure. It also begs another question I have from your response above - how can one not know what they claimed they already previously knew? Since phrases like "I've never heard..." tend to imply the absence of information, you can see how it may lead to assumptions being made.
 
Re: 5751 Preamp Tubes...

^You're ruining a thread. You gave your thoughts and opinions....no one agreed. Contribute or move on, not bicker.
 
Re: 5751 Preamp Tubes...

I will refer to your posts below.





Now since my proficiency in English has been called into question, I will defer to you to decipher these cryptic passages above. From where I stand, both statements imply receiving new information of some sort. Now due to my deficiencies in the English language, of which you were so kind to point out, I guess I can't be too sure. It also begs another question I have from your response above - how can one not know what they claimed they already previously knew? Since phrases like "I've never heard..." tend to imply the absence of information, you can see how it may lead to assumptions being made.

Well, Thanaton/DreX/Joey Voltage, it appears you also don't recognize sarcasm when you read it.
 
Re: 5751 Preamp Tubes...

View attachment 81756

Anyone use these???

Recently I acquired a new Deluxe Reverb Reissue! While I'm quite happy with the amplifier overall I'd like to try and tame it's inherent upper mid spike just a touch if possible? Originally I had planned on doing half a "Trey Mod" to achieve this, for anyone who doesn't know what a Trey Mod is in regards to the Deluxe Reverb, it's just a 12AT7 in place of the 12AX7 in V1 & a Mid bump/cut knob in place of the second vibrato input jack.

Since I'm not entirely sure if installing a Mid bump/cut knob is even possible with a reissue's printed circuit board & if it is I can't afford to have it done now anyway, I figured I'd see how far I got just by swapping out V1 with a 12AT7. While reading up on the subject matter & looking at valves the 5751 was brought to my attention...

Apparently it's essentially just a 12AX7 with 30% lower gain so it has the same basic effect as the 12AT7 in V1 but doesn't lower the amplifiers volume as much & is less noisy? Just kinda wondering if anyone else out there has tried this tube in place of a 12AX7, & if so what their thoughts were???

Tried JJ 5751 in my Egnater Rebel for a week or two. I had idea of trying to balance out the preamp a bit: Preamp gain has massive effect on overall volume of the amp. It's full on at master at noon with preamp gain at 2 o'clock, where I like it. There's interesting cooperation between preamp and power amp, which I think is part of the design that makes master volume so good in these amps.

If I could get a tad easier access to clean tones with 5751, all the better.

Tried it first in V1 (2nd preamp tube in these amps), where it just ruined the tone with no other effect. I suppose it did cut the gain low at PI input that wreck havoc on gain structure.

So I tried it in V2 (first preamp from input). Much better. Really liked clean I was able to coax out with volume controls with it. Didn't seemed too bad for overdrive either after gain and tone adjustment.

Later on I did thought amp was a bit sizzly and thin sounding. With holidays and all I didn't do much tone hunting. Just playing whatever I had there. Last night I played after a short while and really couldn't get crunch and distortion sound right. Remembering I switched the tube I switched 12ax7 back.

It was revelation for how good it sounded with right tube back in. Might not clean out as well, but it sounded, well sounds, glorious.

So I'm done with that. This amp works with tubes it's designed to work with.
 
Re: 5751 Preamp Tubes...

^ Too bad the 5751's didn't work for you. I've never owned nor played any Egnater amps, but for my amps, 5751's helped immensely for taming the gain. And btw, with most amps, V1 is closest to input and V2 is next, but again, I'm unfamiliar with Egnaters. V1 usually gives the best results for gain taming and sometimes doing both gives good results. At least, that's been my experience. :dunno:
 
Re: 5751 Preamp Tubes...

^ Too bad the 5751's didn't work for you. I've never owned nor played any Egnater amps, but for my amps, 5751's helped immensely for taming the gain. And btw, with most amps, V1 is closest to input and V2 is next, but again, I'm unfamiliar with Egnaters. V1 usually gives the best results for gain taming and sometimes doing both gives good results. At least, that's been my experience. :dunno:

For whatever reason Egnater has named V1 and V2 backwards in their tube charts... That's why I specified which is which.
 
Re: 5751 Preamp Tubes...

First, cheapest and probably most effective thing to do with a deluxe reverb is to remove the bright cap from the normal channel. Although the reissues are not as easy to work on as the old ones due to their construction, it is still a super easy and reversible mod. In about 90% of cases that will take away the spike you are hearing. When the amp is cranked to full, the bright cap essentially does nothing, but at lower volumes its effect is more pronounced as everything above a certain frequency is being amplified as if the amp was fully cranked. If you remove the bright cap, your amp will amplify all frequencies more evenly across the volume range. I would do this first before swapping any tubes. Some of the bigger fenders like supers and twins have the bright circuit with a switch, given that deluxes don't have a switch, you might find that simply removing the cap will give you exactly what you want and you will never hear an annoying spike again.

Second thing you can look at which doesn't require any mods (apart from undoing a few bolts), but costs a bit more is speaker swapping.
What speaker did it come with?
If it is the Jensen c12k, changing that out will do more than anything to modify you tone in a meaningful way. Far more than any tube swaps. I have never though that deluxes or any blackface style fender have a "mid spike" quite the opposite in fact, but many of them have a definite "spike" up in the high frequencies, partly this is the bright circuit, but also the speakers natural eq contributes too. Those jensen speakers have it in spades and you cant dial it out. I would recommend trying out a fatter, warmer speaker like a cannabis rex if you want to really fatten up, loosen up and sweeten up a deluxe. Think of a fat jazzy, bluesy tone. If you prefer something, a bit tighter and less dark, try a texas heat. texas heats are in the jensen reissue vein but to me they just do everything better, thicker, warmer, smoother yet somehow still more articulate because you can turn up the treble without it spiking your ears. Great either clean or with overdrive. Last further option worth looking at is the maverick, so you can crank up your amp a little more, but control your volume at
the speaker. These are similar to texas heats, but perhaps more bright, again in the jensen vein, but again they do it better than jensens. Really useful in non master amps like deluxes.

Last thing you might want to look at after these is doing the "nashville mod" which is simply a resistor swap. Deluxes do not have a mid control pot like the bigger fenders, but they do have a resistor. At 4.7k ohms it is more or less the same as having your mids permanently set at 5 or 6. If you swap to a 10k resistor, it is the same as cranking them to 10. It wont make you amp more spiky, but it will make it sound a little thicker. You may even want to try a few values between 4.7 and 10k but most folks find that either they like the stock sound, or want more mids, in which case the 10k ohm resistor does the job.
 
Re: 5751 Preamp Tubes...

First, cheapest and probably most effective thing to do with a deluxe reverb is to remove the bright cap from the normal channel. Although the reissues are not as easy to work on as the old ones due to their construction, it is still a super easy and reversible mod. In about 90% of cases that will take away the spike you are hearing. When the amp is cranked to full, the bright cap essentially does nothing, but at lower volumes its effect is more pronounced as everything above a certain frequency is being amplified as if the amp was fully cranked. If you remove the bright cap, your amp will amplify all frequencies more evenly across the volume range. I would do this first before swapping any tubes. Some of the bigger fenders like supers and twins have the bright circuit with a switch, given that deluxes don't have a switch, you might find that simply removing the cap will give you exactly what you want and you will never hear an annoying spike again.

Second thing you can look at which doesn't require any mods (apart from undoing a few bolts), but costs a bit more is speaker swapping.
What speaker did it come with?
If it is the Jensen c12k, changing that out will do more than anything to modify you tone in a meaningful way. Far more than any tube swaps. I have never though that deluxes or any blackface style fender have a "mid spike" quite the opposite in fact, but many of them have a definite "spike" up in the high frequencies, partly this is the bright circuit, but also the speakers natural eq contributes too. Those jensen speakers have it in spades and you cant dial it out. I would recommend trying out a fatter, warmer speaker like a cannabis rex if you want to really fatten up, loosen up and sweeten up a deluxe. Think of a fat jazzy, bluesy tone. If you prefer something, a bit tighter and less dark, try a texas heat. texas heats are in the jensen reissue vein but to me they just do everything better, thicker, warmer, smoother yet somehow still more articulate because you can turn up the treble without it spiking your ears. Great either clean or with overdrive. Last further option worth looking at is the maverick, so you can crank up your amp a little more, but control your volume at
the speaker. These are similar to texas heats, but perhaps more bright, again in the jensen vein, but again they do it better than jensens. Really useful in non master amps like deluxes.

Last thing you might want to look at after these is doing the "nashville mod" which is simply a resistor swap. Deluxes do not have a mid control pot like the bigger fenders, but they do have a resistor. At 4.7k ohms it is more or less the same as having your mids permanently set at 5 or 6. If you swap to a 10k resistor, it is the same as cranking them to 10. It wont make you amp more spiky, but it will make it sound a little thicker. You may even want to try a few values between 4.7 and 10k but most folks find that either they like the stock sound, or want more mids, in which case the 10k ohm resistor does the job.

I learned a little trick years ago on a forum poster on how to get more mids from a Fender amp with no mid control. Just statr with the bass and treble controls all the way down, maybe bring up the treble slightly to get the brightness you want. Because the mids are preset on those amps, reducing the bass and treble to zero or close to it brings up the mids in relation to the B/T. You may lose a slight bit of volume, but it does bring up the mids a little bit, and you get breakup at a lower level. I do it with my '65 PR, and have since I read that post back then. Try it and see if you like it.
Al
 
Re: 5751 Preamp Tubes...

Another vote here for the older production 5751s. The 1980s production JAN Philips 5751 and JAN GE 5751 can still be found pretty readily. The old Sylvania's are my favorite V1 tube for HRDs. I've got quite a few 5751s and am of the opinion that they sound much better than the new production 5751s.

Without rehashing, 12AT7s are in a different family electrically than the 12AX7, 5751 and even the 12AY7. For what the OP is looking for, I'd go with a JAN Philips 5751.

Good luck.
 
Re: 5751 Preamp Tubes...

Well. A bit update: After couple of days, I thought my tone was a bit on muddy side, so wanting bit more brightness, I decided to try out 5751 again since it made the amp brighter.

Had to test that well enough before posting this :D

I'm now pretty much decided 5751 is indeed very much better than the 12ax7. Adjusted gain levels slightly and offsetted the lacking thump with Rebels tube pot one click further to 6V6 side. Now it's perfect.

Drive is a little less refined and more raunchy, which works fine. Especially since it only affects the lower frequencies. High end is still smooth as it was. The difference in clean tones is phenomenal though. I've never had as good cleans available with simply adjusting guitar gain.

So for now 5751 stays. It's great!

EDIT: Do preamp tubes need break in? I suspect it could have some part in this...
 
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