59 + JB = ?

Supernautilus

Active member
The JB and 59 are probably my two favorite bridge pickups. I love the upper midrange grind of the JB and the sweet crunch of the 59. Which SD pickup would sit squarely between these two, in terms of tone and output? Just wondering…any opinions?
 
I've always wondered about that too. On the Duncan Blog, they recommend not doing hybrids of pickups more than a wire gauge apart, but then, they came up with these for some ESP's.

Pretty sure DiMarzio does the multiple wire gauges away thing, though.
 
JB stepped down could be an A5 DDn or Jason Becker. Similar type crunch. 59 stepped up could be a custom 5. I made a Seth/JB hybrid and it sounded great. I don't think there's any problem with hybrid-ing 42 and 44 awg.
 
IME Whole Lotta Humbucker would be in between a 59 - JB tone and output-wise, but leaning a more toward the 59. Anything I can think of that leans more toward the JB output doesn't sound anything like a JB. The JB is pretty unique in the line. But it also depends what guitar this is going in. My reference is more with Les Pauls and SGs (mahogany). Pickups can sound very different in Strat types (alder/ash/basswood/maple).
 
Hmm, good point. Well, I know the resistance doesn't always correlate with output. For instance, the Jerry Donahue model smokes in my Tele and it's only 7K. It can easily keep up with humbuckers. So maybe it's that kind of thing. *shrug*
 
I don't doubt those sound killer, but somehow, I have a hard time believing something with 10K resistance and an aged magnet gets "medium" output.

Well, believe it.

You can't always go by the resistance as a true measure of output. The Demon is 10k and sounds very similar in output to a 59 imo. The 59/C hybrid at 11k also. I don't think you're going to find anything with similar tone to the JB (thank goodness) and output to the 59...maybe a Slash (b).
 
I was perusing the website and happened to stumble upon this in the custom shop. The description doesn't say much other than forum members came up with it. Anyone have more details on this?

https://customshop.seymourduncan.com/brobucker/

The Brobucker is like a Seth with more heat and the mid bump is shifted from the 'honk' region up into the 'chime' region. It plays well with any PAF type in the neck. Works with Seth, Antiquity, A2P, 36th Anniversary, and other Custom Shop offerings like the Bonamassa stuff e.g. Skinnerburst. It's a pretty perfect PAF bridge. The recent Gibson Custombucker (which is A3) is close in sound but noticeably weaker; the Duncan Brobucker is a bit clearer, chimier and has more push in the upper mid region. It sings and cuts through, in it's own PAF-ish way.
 
I don't doubt those sound killer, but somehow, I have a hard time believing something with 10K resistance and an aged magnet gets "medium" output.

The magnet's charge has a lot more to do with output than resistance; imagine a humbucker with NO magnet, for instance. So the 'aged' magnet (not knowing how it's charged, but it's obviously somewhere between 'fully' and 'not at all') is likely moderating the output.

Larry
 
Maybe the Pegasus?
Hotter than the 59, but not as hot as the JB.
Or else possibly the 59/Custom as previously mentioned.
 
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I've always wondered about that too. On the Duncan Blog, they recommend not doing hybrids of pickups more than a wire gauge apart, but then, they came up with these for some ESP's.

Pretty sure DiMarzio does the multiple wire gauges away thing, though.

That blog is mine. I didn't say that a 42awg humbucker and a 44awg humbucker don't go together. That's nonsense. What I did say, though, is that having one coil with 42awg and one coil with 44awg has not given results as satisfactory compared to 42+43 and 43+44.

Dimarzio had a patent for what they call dual resonance, which has long since expired, leaving this avenue open for others to use and explore, which Seymour Duncan has done with for example the 59Custom Hybrid.

On topic:

The Air Norton by Dimarzio has the open feel and tone of the 59 but the tightness of the JB as well as its fluid 'feel'.
The Perpetual Burn is similar (tonally) but skewed a little more towards the JB than the 59, compared to the Air Norton's tilt towards the 59.

I wouldn't go with the Pegasus: that one feels so much tighter and aggressive than the JB or the 59. Doesn't have the open vocal voice of the 59, nor the liquid feel of the JB.

Another great choice would be Bareknuckle's Polymath. Man, that pickup is ridiculous.
 
I don't doubt those sound killer, but somehow, I have a hard time believing something with 10K resistance and an aged magnet gets "medium" output.

I once put an Alnico3 in a Custom. 14K wind and a superweak magnet. The drop in output was extremely significant but tonally, it worked so, so well. As if the weak magnet gave it some openness, the strong coils some natural compression (it doesn't work that way, I know, I'm just trying to verbalize my experience with this pickup). The output of a pickup is determined by magnet type, magnet strength, wire gauge, insulation, and turns of wire on the bobbin. To simply read 'alnico X + xxK Ohm = y mVolt' is extremely ignorant and dare I say, foolish.
 
I once put an Alnico3 in a Custom. 14K wind and a superweak magnet. The drop in output was extremely significant but tonally, it worked so, so well. As if the weak magnet gave it some openness, the strong coils some natural compression (it doesn't work that way, I know, I'm just trying to verbalize my experience with this pickup). The output of a pickup is determined by magnet type, magnet strength, wire gauge, insulation, and turns of wire on the bobbin. To simply read 'alnico X + xxK Ohm = y mVolt' is extremely ignorant and dare I say, foolish.
I understand there's a lot of factors that come into play. I've never tried the pickup myself. But then, what is it that raises the output of that pickup so much as to reach "medium output" levels?

Because as far as I understand, that pickup is wound with the same type of wire (insulation included) as the 59 and WLH, correct? It's only roughly 15% more overwound than the WLH, and then, t's got a weaker magnet than the WLH. And the WLH is certainly not medium output. At least not IME.

But maybe there's something going on under the hood of the Brobucker that I'm missing? Maybe the winding pattern maximizes the output? Maybe it is that overwound?

I'm not assuring it is not medium out. How can I when I've never even tried it? I'm just saying I don't see how it can be. But maybe I am being too narrow sighted and missing something. Would love to be proven wrong.
 
I understand there's a lot of factors that come into play. I've never tried the pickup myself. But then, what is it that raises the output of that pickup so much as to reach "medium output" levels?

Because as far as I understand, that pickup is wound with the same type of wire (insulation included) as the 59 and WLH, correct? It's only roughly 15% more overwound than the WLH, and then, t's got a weaker magnet than the WLH. And the WLH is certainly not medium output. At least not IME.

But maybe there's something going on under the hood of the Brobucker that I'm missing? Maybe the winding pattern maximizes the output? Maybe it is that overwound?

I'm not assuring it is not medium out. How can I when I've never even tried it? I'm just saying I don't see how it can be. But maybe I am being too narrow sighted and missing something. Would love to be proven wrong.

Oh, good question.

Let me see how to answer this as simple as possible.

When you add more winds to the coil, into 'overwound' territory. there are a few things at play.

1) insulation. What kind of insulation are you using? For the brobucker it has to be a superthin insulation, how else can you get that much of that thick wire on the bobbin?
2) wind pattern matters, yes, as you add more copper to the bobbin, you don't just amp the millivoltage a coil can produce. You also change the EQ dramatically.

That last part is the most important thing. The Fletcher Munson curve comes into play

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The human hearing does not experience frequency linearly, and the pickups don't produce frequency linearly either. By ramping up the amount of copper on a bobbin, you don't just create more millivolts but the curve shifts as well, often into a territory where we experience a huge increase in a frequency range we can already hear. Now, the danger of overwinding 42awg is that you get SO much of that EQ in the pickup's tone, that it starts to sound mushy, oversaturated, woofy. To combat that, a weaker magnet is used. The weaker magnet will, by default, create a weaker voltage. Take a look again at the Custom3 versus Custom5. The weaker magnet completely changed pick attack, the compression, the saturation, and shifted the EQ a bit as well, but was it 30% weaker than a Custom5?! Hell no. Alnico3 is I believe 30% weaker than Alnico5. No, the pickup had less output, sure, but didn't go into PAF territory of output, at all.

The voltage of the pickup is not just determinated by wire gauge, magnet type, magnet strength, etc. It is a friggin complicated situation :P
 
Look at, for example, the Jerry Donahue tele pickup (7.7k, Alnico 2) versus the Vintage 54 bridge pickup (7K Alnico 5). The JD sounds LOUD, brash, thick, chewy, and a LOT louder than the Vintage54. The difference is significant. 0.7K is only approximately 500 turns if memory serves, so it's not that (both have 43 awg ). The alnico2 is also a lot weaker than alnico5, so you'd guess that makes the difference. No?

No.

The difference is that the JD is wound to have a bump in a frequency range that just sits better in our ears, distorted even more so.

or take a look at Dimarzio's Steve's Special: that's an 18K pickup, ceramic magnet. You'd expect that pickup to be a firebreather! But... it's only got 390milivolts output, compared to Crunchlab with 410mv and 11K and a ceramic magnet. DCR does not equal output, at all. it never has, it never will, and with so many parameters that are relevant to the story, only experience of using a pickup can guide you.
 
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