59B/Custom A2 Hybrid VS 10K 59 Overwind?

[STRATDELUXER97]

Sorry for using 10k again in the topic and I hope I don't get banned for it,but I do have some good questions and curiosities!?

I'm very happy with the 59B/Custom A2 Hybrid I've stayed with in my LP...The Hybrid isn't at all muddy,is very articulate,and is a great pickup and has some nice overall balls to it and rated for 11 to 11.5k....Wondering if the overwound 59B 10K pickup alot of us are asking for would be as good a pickup with the balanced coils compared to the un-balanced coils of the Hybrid? The Hybrid has great harmonic content,but would this overwound 59 act the same way?

I read that someone at SD(was it MJ) thought a 10k 59B with A2 could be muddy? This isn't at all the case with the A2 or A5 Hybrids?

What are your all's thoughts about the Hybrid vs this overwound 10K 59B currently on the drawing board? I'm intriqued,but I'm not planning on spending the $100 for one right away....I'll let some of you be the guinea pigs I guess,unless this becomes a one shot order deal.....A double cream nickel covered 10k 59b would be a pretty cool pickup to try though maybe?Alnico magnet changes to suit an individuals tastes. LOL

What about the Scremon Demon compared to an overwound 59B...Similar or not really? I thought the A5 SD was too toppy and it lacks bass....A better fix for this pickup is going with all std nickel screws in both bobbins...

Opinions....:smokin:

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: 59B/Custom A2 Hybrid VS 10K 59 Overwind?

A lot of "muddiness" is in playing technique, usually picking or (worse) strumming too far away from the bridge where you get the lower frequencies.

They would definitely be different. Off the top of my head I would think your hybrid would a better pickup -- more punch but with clear highs due to the 3k mismatch in favor of the screw coil (closer to bridge).

But you never know for sure until you try it out. They often turn out way different from what you thought.

 

[PoorMan]

Re: 59B/Custom A2 Hybrid VS 10K 59 Overwind?

I'm color sanding the guitar I'm putting my 59/Custom hybrid in this week. I hope it's what I'm after (hotter PAF tone), but the mismatch is pretty major so I fear noise. Other than that, I have high hopes.

Anyway, I'll have it in by Xmas Eve and plan to report back here as soon as it's done.

Strat, You've had your hybrid for a while now...what do you think? PAFish?

 

[gripweed]

Re: 59B/Custom A2 Hybrid VS 10K 59 Overwind?

It was Rev Donzo who said it might be muddy.

I think the hybrid is brighter for two reasons

1) the mismatch of the coils
2) the thinner wire used in the custom series (I think it is 43)

 

[STRATDELUXER97]

Re: 59B/Custom A2 Hybrid VS 10K 59 Overwind?

I'm color sanding the guitar I'm putting my 59/Custom hybrid in this week. I hope it's what I'm after (hotter PAF tone), but the mismatch is pretty major so I fear noise. Other than that, I have high hopes.

Anyway, I'll have it in by Xmas Eve and plan to report back here as soon as it's done.

Strat, You've had your hybrid for a while now...what do you think? PAFish?

I've never owned or played a 57-60 PAF humbucker so I really can't comment on what that tone really is? Can it do stuff like Cream,Richard Betts,Duane,Peter Green,Moore,Page,etc.....Yep,but it's probably ballsier and has more harmonic content than the slightly mis-matched original PAF....Do I think all original PAF pickups were the end all of pickups and that they were all consistently great? Nope.... I'm also pretty sure that those earlier PAFs could have had anything from A2 to A5 and those magnets in between and this is going to make one pickup warm,soft,and sweet,compared to say the A5 which would be tighter,brighter,and have more output and stronger lows...

The Hybrid is a great pickup and I'm a pretty fussy guy,but I'd like to know how the 59B/Custom Hybrid would A/B with an actual 10K 59B pickup...

 

[PoorMan]

Re: 59B/Custom A2 Hybrid VS 10K 59 Overwind?

I've never owned or played a 57-60 PAF humbucker so I really can't comment on what that tone really is? Can it do stuff like Cream,Richard Betts,Duane,Peter Green,Moore,Page,etc.....Yep,but it's probably ballsier and has more harmonic content than the slightly mis-matched original PAF....Do I think all original PAF pickups were the end all of pickups and that they were all consistently great? Nope.... I'm also pretty sure that those earlier PAFs could have had anything from A2 to A5 and those magnets in between and this is going to make one pickup warm,soft,and sweet,compared to say the A5 which would be tighter,brighter,and have more output and stronger lows...

The Hybrid is a great pickup and I'm a pretty fussy guy,but I'd like to know how the 59B/Custom Hybrid would A/B with an actual 10K 59B pickup...

Good point (and correct on all points). PAF tone is different to everyone...

In my case, a better question would have been...is it '59ish? (I guess my ideal PAF tone is a Duncan '59)

 

[STRATDELUXER97]

Re: 59B/Custom A2 Hybrid VS 10K 59 Overwind?

Good point (and correct on all points). PAF tone is different to everyone...

In my case, a better question would have been...is it '59ish? (I guess my ideal PAF tone is a Duncan '59)

Yes it's 59ish and Custom Custom ish with an A2....2 Great pickups together as one and I think that's the thing I Like about these Hybrids,plus the harmonics....Gotta keep mentioning this cause that's something I Missed upon trying the 59B pickup with different magnets...The 59 was thin and too bright by comparison.

 

[shredaholic]

Re: 59B/Custom A2 Hybrid VS 10K 59 Overwind?

Hey John, do you happen to have a spare custom coil and a spare 59b coil after doing the hybrid that you might wanna part with?

 

[BachToRock]

Re: 59B/Custom A2 Hybrid VS 10K 59 Overwind?

The problem when you overwind a PAF style 42 guage wire pickup(59 Model, Seth, EVH, etc.) is that it starts getting garbled sounding above about 9k just as MJ has informed you...

To achieve a more beefy tone and retain clarity, you need to step to a thinner wire and wind more turns... ala the Custom models which use 43 guage wire coils wound to just above 14k which is the optimal range for tone with that wire...

The next step is the JB & Distortion which are wound up to about 16k with 44 gauge wire which is the optimal range for THAT wire.

Each wire has its "sweet spot" for tone and response and they all end up with about the same size coil... each wire also produces a unique set of harmonics

The comprimise when producing a "hot" pickup is that you lose some of the articulation and dynamic response of the PAF and start to suffer from compression due to the signal travelling through a greater length of thinner wire. There are benefits and comprimises with each unique design.

With the Hybrid you get a blend of the different gauge wires qualities... also, each coil has a different resonant peak so the combination is less "peaky" or "one notey" than a standard humbucker. The mis-matched coils also cancel less harmonics so the tone is more complex and posseses some qualities exclusive to single coil pickups.

The coils are actually not very mis-matched since they have roughly the same amount of copper on the coil... you can't just use the resistance reading as a balance indicator
The difference in resistance readings is because a 59 coil is wound with 42 gauge wire and a Custom coil is wound with 43 gauge wire which is thinner and electronically more resistive, add the additional turns it takes to fill the coil and your resistance reading is going to be a lot higher than a 42 gauge coil... the key factor is that they have about the same amount of copper on the coil which is what reacts to produce sound when the magnetic field is stimulated by the vibration of the strings.

An example of a widely mis-matched humbucker is the FRALIN UN-BUCKER which has coils of the SAME gauge wire wound pretty far apart... the resistance measurement may only be 1k or so, but that is with 42 gauge wire which will produce 2 coils with a big difference in the amount of actual copper... I tried one of those and did not like it at all... the resonant peak produced by that 3.5k 42 gauge coil was shrill sounding to my ears.

I hope I have explained this in understandable terminology...

There is a consistant misunderstanding on the forum of how pickups work... ESPECIALLY in regards to resistance measurements... different gauge wires produce a different responses, harmonics and tone... that is why there are different models made with 42 gauge(59 Model, JAZZ, APII, etc), 43 gauge(Custom) and 44 gauge(JB,Distortion, etc...)
Seymour has nailed the optimal winds for wire each of the standard gauge & type and that is why his pickups are generally regarded as the best... the majority of all the different models available are just variations of magnet type/size, coverd/uncoverd, potted/un-potted and different polepieces.

Hybrids made using Duncan coils are the best pickups I have ever heard...
The finest Bridge pickup being the Alnico 59/Custom Hybrid... the JB/Custom is also very cool for more modern tone...
The Neck pickup of choice is the 59/Jazz Hybrid...
DiMarzio has patents on this type of design so you will not be seeing them in the Duncan lineup anytime soon.

 

[Curly]

Re: 59B/Custom A2 Hybrid VS 10K 59 Overwind?

BTR,
good post !

I'm no expert, but it seemed to me that picking a number between 7-8 PAF and 14+ Customs was a little arbitrary, and I did wonder about the wire and coil size issue, so your explanation helped

 

[PoorMan]

Re: 59B/Custom A2 Hybrid VS 10K 59 Overwind?

The problem when you overwind a PAF style 42 guage wire pickup(59 Model, Seth, EVH, etc.) is that it starts getting garbled sounding above about 9k just as MJ has informed you...

To achieve a more beefy tone and retain clarity, you need to step to a thinner wire and wind more turns... ala the Custom models which use 43 guage wire coils wound to just above 14k which is the optimal range for tone with that wire...

The next step is the JB & Distortion which are wound up to about 16k with 44 gauge wire which is the optimal range for THAT wire.

Each wire has its "sweet spot" for tone and response and they all end up with about the same size coil...

The comprimise when producing a "hot" pickup is that you lose the articulation and dynamic response of the PAF and start to suffer from compression due to the signal travelling through a greater length of thinner wire.

With the Hybrid you get a blend of the different gauge wires qualities... also, each coil has a different resonant peak so the combination is less "peaky" or "one notey" than a standard humbucker. The mis-matched coils also cancel less harmonics so the tone is more complex and posseses some qualities exclusive to single coil pickups.

The coils are actually not very mis-matched since they have roughly the same amount of copper on the coil... you can't just use the resistance reading as a balance indicator
The difference in resistance readings is because a 59 coil is wound with 42 gauge wire and a Custom coil is wound with 43 gauge wire which is thinner and electronically more resistive, add the additional turns it takes to fill the coil and your resistance reading is going to be a lot higher than a 42 gauge coil... the key factor is that they have about the same amount of copper on the coil which is what reacts to produce sound when the magnetic field is stimulated by the vibration of the strings.

An example of a widely mis-matched humbucker is the FRALIN UN-BUCKER which has coils of the SAME gauge wire wound pretty far apart... the resistance measurement may only be 1k or so, but that is with 42 gauge wire which will produce 2 coils with a big difference in the amount of actual copper... I tried one of those and did not like it at all... the resonant peak produced by that 3.5k 42 gauge coil was shrill sounding to my ears.

I hope I have explained this in understandable terminology...

There is a consistant misunderstanding on the forum of how pickups work... ESPECIALLY regarding resistance measurements... different gauge wires produce a different reponse, harmonics and tone... that is why there are different models made with 42 gauge(59 Model, JAZZ, APII, etc), 43 gauge(Custom) and 44 gauge(JB,Distortion, etc...)

What the?!?!? Wow...BachToRock...you sure know a lot about p'ups! I agree with all points (in theory, not practice as my knowledge is based on reading rather than actual pickup winding), so when you talk about wire guages having sweet spots, are you saying that is relative to mass and not resisitance? Isn't noise cancellation directly affected by resistance?

OK...I'm a mortgage lender...BachToRock, time to tell us your profession because you are clearly far better versed than most of us on this subject.

You know...Jason Lollar wrote a black and white text manual on pickup winding that's going for upwards of $160 on eBay (the same guy is buying them all up oddly enough). Please feel free to share more with us! :beerchug:

 

[Scott_F]

Re: 59B/Custom A2 Hybrid VS 10K 59 Overwind?

Calling Rev Donzo. Your advice on this needed!

 

[Fritz6]

Re: 59B/Custom A2 Hybrid VS 10K 59 Overwind?

Sorry for using 10k again in the topic and I hope I don't get banned for it,but I do have some good questions and curiosities!?

I'm very happy with the 59B/Custom A2 Hybrid I've stayed with in my LP...The Hybrid isn't at all muddy,is very articulate,and is a great pickup and has some nice overall balls to it and rated for 11 to 11.5k....Wondering if the overwound 59B 10K pickup alot of us are asking for would be as good a pickup with the balanced coils compared to the un-balanced coils of the Hybrid? The Hybrid has great harmonic content,but would this overwound 59 act the same way?

I read that someone at SD(was it MJ) thought a 10k 59B with A2 could be muddy? This isn't at all the case with the A2 or A5 Hybrids?

What are your all's thoughts about the Hybrid vs this overwound 10K 59B currently on the drawing board? I'm intriqued,but I'm not planning on spending the $100 for one right away....I'll let some of you be the guinea pigs I guess,unless this becomes a one shot order deal.....A double cream nickel covered 10k 59b would be a pretty cool pickup to try though maybe?Alnico magnet changes to suit an individuals tastes. LOL

What about the Scremon Demon compared to an overwound 59B...Similar or not really? I thought the A5 SD was too toppy and it lacks bass....A better fix for this pickup is going with all std nickel screws in both bobbins...

Opinions....:smokin:

I have a 10k A3 double screw High Order (43 guage) bucker. If you want to try it out let me know.

 

[STRATDELUXER97]

Re: 59B/Custom A2 Hybrid VS 10K 59 Overwind?

Hybrids made using Duncan coils are the best pickups I have ever heard...
The finest Bridge pickup being the Alnico 59/Custom Hybrid... the JB/Custom is also very cool for more modern tone...
The Neck pickup of choice is the 59/Jazz Hybrid...
DiMarzio has patents on this type of design so you will not be seeing them in the Duncan lineup anytime soon.[/QUOTE]

Ahhhhhh yes,my Hybrid Mentor and overall Hybrid Guru! Pete! Great post as usual....This better become Vault material....I've been pushing these Hybrids onto forum members also,but I guess they aren't for everyone? Once I Pulled the 59B/C pickup out of my bridge and sent it to Jumpmarine,it took me about a day to realize I screwed up and should have not parted with it....Lucky for me,I had another 1 and it's every bit as great as the original 1 I made! Same thing with the Jazz/59N A4 I have in the same guitar....Just great stuff and I really can't thank you enough!

I always trust my own ears with everything I do,pedals,amp mods,guitar tweaks,etc...and the Hybrid pickups tell me my ears are still working right for me...One thing I keep finding with these Hybrids,is great harmonics when playing with gain from my amps:dance:

 

[STRATDELUXER97]

Re: 59B/Custom A2 Hybrid VS 10K 59 Overwind?

Hey John, do you happen to have a spare custom coil and a spare 59b coil after doing the hybrid that you might wanna part with?

I have 1 extra 4 conductor 59B/C Hybrid here at home,but it's not for sale...I can make you one,of course Bachtorock can also....

 

[JALIN]

Re: 59B/Custom A2 Hybrid VS 10K 59 Overwind?

I have 1 extra 4 conductor 59B/C Hybrid here at home,but it's not for sale...I can make you one,of course Bachtorock can also....

How much does one go for out of curiosity?

 

[gripweed]

Re: 59B/Custom A2 Hybrid VS 10K 59 Overwind?

The problem when you overwind a PAF style 42 guage wire pickup(59 Model, Seth, EVH, etc.) is that it starts getting garbled sounding above about 9k just as MJ has informed you

Can anyone show me in this thread where MJ has informed anyone that the S-Deco2 is garbled? Rev Donzo said it *might* be muddy.

https://forum.seymourduncan.com/showthread.php?t=59528

We are making a lot of assumptions about this pickups that may or may not be true. First, it may not be wound with 42 wire. Second, the S-Deco 2 is offered in a 10k-10.5k and 11.5k to 12k wind. I highly doubt Duncan would offer such a garbled or muddy pickup, especially from the custom shop

 

[Scott_F]

Re: 59B/Custom A2 Hybrid VS 10K 59 Overwind?

for the record, i have an old 59N that needs some work. i asked don if i should have MJ put an A2 mag in it and overwind it to 10k. response was that it might get muddy with A2. (an A2 59= a Pearly Gates btw) We're talking about wire being the same. I do not know whay wire is used on an S Deco. I just know that if its in the "lineup", its been tweaked out.

 

[gripweed]

Re: 59B/Custom A2 Hybrid VS 10K 59 Overwind?

for the record, i have an old 59N that needs some work. i asked don if i should have MJ put an A2 mag in it and overwind it to 10k. response was that it might get muddy with A2. (an A2 59= a Pearly Gates btw) We're talking about wire being the same. I do not know whay wire is used on an S Deco. I just know that if its in the "lineup", its been tweaked out.

Thank you.

 

[twoheadedboy]

Re: 59B/Custom A2 Hybrid VS 10K 59 Overwind?

The problem when you overwind a PAF style 42 guage wire pickup(59 Model, Seth, EVH, etc.) is that it starts getting garbled sounding above about 9k just as MJ has informed you...

To achieve a more beefy tone and retain clarity, you need to step to a thinner wire and wind more turns... ala the Custom models which use 43 guage wire coils wound to just above 14k which is the optimal range for tone with that wire...

The next step is the JB & Distortion which are wound up to about 16k with 44 gauge wire which is the optimal range for THAT wire.

Each wire has its "sweet spot" for tone and response and they all end up with about the same size coil... each wire also produces a unique set of harmonics

The comprimise when producing a "hot" pickup is that you lose some of the articulation and dynamic response of the PAF and start to suffer from compression due to the signal travelling through a greater length of thinner wire. There are benefits and comprimises with each unique design.

With the Hybrid you get a blend of the different gauge wires qualities... also, each coil has a different resonant peak so the combination is less "peaky" or "one notey" than a standard humbucker. The mis-matched coils also cancel less harmonics so the tone is more complex and posseses some qualities exclusive to single coil pickups.

The coils are actually not very mis-matched since they have roughly the same amount of copper on the coil... you can't just use the resistance reading as a balance indicator
The difference in resistance readings is because a 59 coil is wound with 42 gauge wire and a Custom coil is wound with 43 gauge wire which is thinner and electronically more resistive, add the additional turns it takes to fill the coil and your resistance reading is going to be a lot higher than a 42 gauge coil... the key factor is that they have about the same amount of copper on the coil which is what reacts to produce sound when the magnetic field is stimulated by the vibration of the strings.

An example of a widely mis-matched humbucker is the FRALIN UN-BUCKER which has coils of the SAME gauge wire wound pretty far apart... the resistance measurement may only be 1k or so, but that is with 42 gauge wire which will produce 2 coils with a big difference in the amount of actual copper... I tried one of those and did not like it at all... the resonant peak produced by that 3.5k 42 gauge coil was shrill sounding to my ears.

I hope I have explained this in understandable terminology...

There is a consistant misunderstanding on the forum of how pickups work... ESPECIALLY in regards to resistance measurements... different gauge wires produce a different responses, harmonics and tone... that is why there are different models made with 42 gauge(59 Model, JAZZ, APII, etc), 43 gauge(Custom) and 44 gauge(JB,Distortion, etc...)
Seymour has nailed the optimal winds for wire each of the standard gauge & type and that is why his pickups are generally regarded as the best... the majority of all the different models available are just variations of magnet type/size, coverd/uncoverd, potted/un-potted and different polepieces.

Hybrids made using Duncan coils are the best pickups I have ever heard...
The finest Bridge pickup being the Alnico 59/Custom Hybrid... the JB/Custom is also very cool for more modern tone...
The Neck pickup of choice is the 59/Jazz Hybrid...
DiMarzio has patents on this type of design so you will not be seeing them in the Duncan lineup anytime soon.

+ a million. you are the man.