59s with Alnico 4 have you done it?

[Donny Craven]

Seymour Duncan says the coil wind of the 59 model is based on Jeff Beck's '59 Les Paul, but with an Alnico 5 magnet specifically selected for the .009 and .010 gauge strings that players had moved towards by the time Seymour developed this set. This helped guitars with lighter gauges to have the same sound as that '59 Les Paul with heavier strings and less powerful magnets.

So... Seth Lover has stated the majority of PAFs had Alnico 4 which would have been rough sand cast.

How many of you have done this magnet swap?

Did you dig it?

Im wondering, I ordered a set of rough A4 and am about to try it myself.

 

[Ascension]

Re: 59s with Alnico 4 have you done it?

I have an A4 mag in the 59 in the neck of my 195 Washburn MG 102. The pickup sings and is more balanced and sweeter. Works very well with the factory JB in this one with the way it's wired on the 5way.

 

[Demanic]

Re: 59s with Alnico 4 have you done it?

+1

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[LtKojak]

Re: 59s with Alnico 4 have you done it?

[Seymour Duncan says the coil wind of the 59 model is based on Jeff Beck's '59 Les Paul

Can you point us to the source of that statement? I don't think is correct.

Seth Lover has stated the majority of PAFs had Alnico 4 which would have been rough sand cast.

Again, please cite your source, as I don't think is correct.

But to answer your question anyway, the A4'59 mod is the oldest and most tried-and-true of all mods done to this particular p'up, specially the '59n. I, for one, have been a fan and very vocal about it (paired-up with an A8'59b) since I've tried it in my 335 in 2007.

HTH,

 

[bearded madman]

Re: 59s with Alnico 4 have you done it?

On the main page on the duncan site there is a pic of Slash that says vintage. Click on it and it goes to an article talking about the origins of some of the pickups.

 

[Archer250]

Re: 59s with Alnico 4 have you done it?

Can you point us to the source of that statement? I don't think is correct.

On their FB page.
https://www.facebook.com/seymourdun...249549.121217989260/10154128116109261/?type=3

 

[LtKojak]

Re: 59s with Alnico 4 have you done it?

Ok. Found it. http://www.seymourduncan.com/vintage

The ’59 Model is one of our most popular pickups – a versatile ’50s-style humbucker with classic tone and attitude. Seymour based this pickup’s coil wind on the humbuckers in Jeff Beck’s 1959 Les Paul. When we started out as a company in the late 70s, more and more guitarists were playing .009 and .010 gauge strings which tended to sound thin and weak with Alnico 2 magnets. So to meet the demands and adapt to modern times, Alnico 5 magnets were used to compensate for the lighter string gauges. But the coil wind itself is straight from Jeff Beck’s ’59 Les Paul.

Well, the story told in the past goes that they were created using as a model a particular good-sounding PAF set Seymour had in his possession.

I wonder WHO wrote this verbatim. It sounds made-up just to be able to name-drop, something Seymour himself would never do.

Call me cynical, but, as an aficionado closely following the Co. since 1980, and a regular member of the Forum since 2006, somehow I don't feel like giving the benefit of the doubt this time.

Lt. Kojak out! *mic drop*

 

[JeffB]

Re: 59s with Alnico 4 have you done it?

The string gauge bit of marketing speak has been around for quite some time and I have heard/read Seymour himself discuss it. But I have not seen it referenced in many years, and it was used previously when he was discussing the Custom SH5 and JB.

Maybe a little revisionist History. Why not? Everyone else is doing it.

 

[eclecticsynergy]

Re: 59s with Alnico 4 have you done it?

I think the belief that most of the original PAFs were made using A4 mags is based on the discovery in Gibson's files of purchase orders dating from the 50s for supplies of wire & magnets. I haven't seen the papers myself.

The earliest reference to this that I've seen was on the LP Forum in '08. There was a discussion between two pickup makers with one maintaining that most had A4 based on the order sheets and the other asserting that all the PAFs he'd seen used either A2 or A5, and that some mistook the A5s for A4 because they weren't fully charged. Both had analyzed vintage PAF mags, with one measuring only magnetic properties and the other measuring only chemical composition. As far as I can tell nobody has analyzed vintage mags using both methods yet.

The situation is complicated further because even today there's no standard formulation for A4 in the official tables for AlNiCo alloys. So back in the 50s what was marketed as A4 may often have been batches of A5 which didn't quite meet the standards and so were sold at a discount as A4. This could account for Gibson's choice to buy them; it might simply have been a cost cutting decision though probably we'll never know. So actually both parties in that discussion at LPF may have been correct...

I've heard it argued that A4 still doesn't officially exist since its alloy formula doesn't appear in the standards, so it's defined solely in terms of magnetic performance rather than chemical composition. Even so, I believe most modern manufacturers have a formula in common for it.

A recent version of alnico specs from the Magnetic Materials Producers Association can be found on page 7 at this link:
http://www.allianceorg.com/pdfs/MMPA_0100-00.pdf

Interestingly, the original patent drawing uses two slug coils. Seth Lover wanted smooth solid covers and the screw coil was added later against his wishes. Management thought it looked better and that keeping adjustable poles (like the P90s already had) would be a good selling point in the ads, especially since the Fender pickups didn't have them. It really was considered primarily a cosmetic feature rather than one that people would actually find useful. I guess we can all be a little grateful that Gibson did that.

 

[Donny Craven]

Re: 59s with Alnico 4 have you done it?

I read they started with A2 then went A3 and A4, A5 started about 60. All were sand cast not polished.

 

[LtKojak]

Re: 59s with Alnico 4 have you done it?

All were sand cast not polished.

The reason they chose rough sandcast was price, as at that time the polished bars costed more. They actually wanted polished (easier to manage in the assembly line), but couldn't get a good enough deal.

Gibson in a nustshell.

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: 59s with Alnico 4 have you done it?

Here's the article that started it all for me: http://www.tonequest.com/files/TQRJan09_proof.pdf

Tom Holmes talks about finding the records at Gibson that showed that in 1959 Gibson ordered mostly alnico 4 from Thomas & Skinner, Gibson's source for pickup magnets. When Tom started making his own replica of the 1959 PAF, Thomas & Skinner made the alnico 4 magnets for him.

Tom uses either alnico 2 or alnico 4 in his pickups these days.

PRS used alnico 4 in the neck pickup of the original Dragon set. I think that neck pickup was Paul's first attempt at creating a PAF.

I've owned Tom Holmes pickups and Dragon pickups.

One set of Tom Holmes pickups I have sound "right" to me and those, I believe, are alnico 2. I still have them in my ES-335.

The other sounded too bright and the midrange wasn't thick enough for me and I think those were alnico 4.

The alnico 4 neck pickup in my '95 PRS CU22 sounded pretty good to me. Usable. But I didn't love it.

I replaced those pickups with Custom Shop Pearly Gates and I like those a lot more.

Guess I'm an alnico 2 kinda guy.

Oh: I did put a set of UOA5 magnets in the Korean made pickups in my PRS SE Singlecut. I like that magnet too.

Interesting that Seymour chose alnico 2 to replicate the sound of the pickups in Billy Gibbon's '59 Les Paul. I'm a fan of the PG's.

But when I asked Seymour about the pickups in Eric Clapton's Les Paul that he used with the Bluesbreakers Seymour told me he thought those were alnico 4 or 5.

To me, the alnico 4 pickups I've owned have a searing sort of midrange & treble that doesn't quite work for my own playing. It's just not the sound I have in my head and it's not vocal enough.

For me.

YMMV as they say.

 

[LtKojak]

Re: 59s with Alnico 4 have you done it?

There was a discussion between two pickup makers with one maintaining that most had A4 based on the order sheets and the other asserting that all the PAFs he'd seen used either A2 or A5, and that some mistook the A5s for A4 because they weren't fully charged. Both had analyzed vintage PAF mags, with one measuring only magnetic properties and the other measuring only chemical composition. As far as I can tell nobody has analyzed vintage mags using both methods yet.

Today, with modern industrial computerized machines used by several ISO 9001 foundries found all over the world, being the best located in continental China, to make a custom batch of any alnico magnet is a much more simple process: the mass-spectometer analizes the presented sample and can determine with precision the exact alloy, then programs the annealing process so it can match the sample in a molecular level, so it'll replicate the B/H curve and the alloy's exact saturation point and level, without destroying the sample. All specs are saved so it can be used again being the truest to the original specs, ensuring repeatability.

even today there's no standard formulation for A4 in the official tables for AlNiCo alloys.

This is simply not true. The formula exists, but it's proprietary; that's why it's not a STANDARD grade contained in the MMPA table. However, even the MMPA recognizes A4 as a viable grade of alnico-based permanent magnet. If you look the presented file in pag. 25, you'll find the specs of A4.

So back in the 50s what was marketed as A4 may often have been batches of A5 which didn't quite meet the standards and so were sold at a discount as A4.

This is pure speculation.

HTH,

 

[Donny Craven]

Re: 59s with Alnico 4 have you done it?

How do we know they wanted polished? I never read that. Did they even have polished magnet bar in 1956?

 

[astrozombie]

Re: 59s with Alnico 4 have you done it?

I think the belief that most of the original PAFs were made using A4 mags is based on the discovery in Gibson's files of purchase orders dating from the 50s for supplies of wire & magnets. I haven't seen the papers myself.

The earliest reference to this that I've seen was on the LP Forum in '08. There was a discussion between two pickup makers with one maintaining that most had A4 based on the order sheets and the other asserting that all the PAFs he'd seen used either A2 or A5, and that some mistook the A5s for A4 because they weren't fully charged. Both had analyzed vintage PAF mags, with one measuring only magnetic properties and the other measuring only chemical composition. As far as I can tell nobody has analyzed vintage mags using both methods yet.

The situation is complicated further because even today there's no standard formulation for A4 in the official tables for AlNiCo alloys. So back in the 50s what was marketed as A4 may often have been batches of A5 which didn't quite meet the standards and so were sold at a discount as A4. This could account for Gibson's choice to buy them; it might simply have been a cost cutting decision though probably we'll never know. So actually both parties in that discussion at LPF may have been correct...

I've heard it argued that A4 still doesn't officially exist since its alloy formula doesn't appear in the standards, so it's defined solely in terms of magnetic performance rather than chemical composition. Even so, I believe most modern manufacturers have a formula in common for it.

A recent version of alnico specs from the Magnetic Materials Producers Association can be found on page 7 at this link:
http://www.allianceorg.com/pdfs/MMPA_0100-00.pdf

Interestingly, the original patent drawing uses two slug coils. Seth Lover wanted smooth solid covers and the screw coil was added later against his wishes. Management thought it looked better and that keeping adjustable poles (like the P90s already had) would be a good selling point in the ads, especially since the Fender pickups didn't have them. It really was considered primarily a cosmetic feature rather than one that people would actually find useful. I guess we can all be a little grateful that Gibson did that.

I beg to differ. Do you have any idea how much time I threw away adjusting the polepieces on pickups?

If I would have actually played as much as I tinkered I might be an EVH or Hendrix myself.

Besides, all our 60s and 70s heroes didn't touch that stuff, I imagine.

Some guitarists were tinkerers but they werent all EVH or Les Paul himself.

I set my pickups with the polepieces flush with the cover. Exactly the way the beatles' guitars were....

Good enough for them, right?

 

[Archer250]

Re: 59s with Alnico 4 have you done it?

I beg to differ. Do you have any idea how much time I threw away adjusting the polepieces on pickups?

If I would have actually played as much as I tinkered I might be an EVH or Hendrix myself.

Besides, all our 60s and 70s heroes didn't touch that stuff, I imagine.

Some guitarists were tinkerers but they werent all EVH or Les Paul himself.

I set my pickups with the polepieces flush with the cover. Exactly the way the beatles' guitars were....

Good enough for them, right?

Funny. I used to tinker with the pole pieces. It always seemed to me that stock sounded better to me, no matter the brand or model.

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: 59s with Alnico 4 have you done it?

Funny. I used to tinker with the pole pieces. It always seemed to me that stock sounded better to me, no matter the brand or model.

What is stock? Flat?

Your strings are laid out in an arch that more or less matches the arch of your fingerboard.

Why would you not want to start your adjustments to the polepieces, with the tops of the polepieces matching the arch of the undersides of your strings so that were all equidistant?

That's where I start. And then I use my ears to adjust the polepieces up or down until the strings each ring at about the same volume with no one string ringing a lot louder than the others.

 

[Archer250]

Re: 59s with Alnico 4 have you done it?

What is stock? Flat?

Whatever the manufacturer gives me. Considering that I use handwound pickups now, it's what the winder set it at. It's no biggie for me.


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[Lewguitar]

Re: 59s with Alnico 4 have you done it?

Whatever the manufacturer gives me. Considering that I use handwound pickups now, it's what the winder set it at. It's no biggie for me.


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Well...you're only 19.

 

[Archer250]

Re: 59s with Alnico 4 have you done it?

Well...you're only 19.

True. Lots of time left (hopefully) for changes.

Having said that. Tweaking can get really useful. I used to tweak the pole pieces to get a tighter or a looser sound.

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