6000 stainless jumbo frets & tone?

Re: 6000 stainless jumbo frets & tone?

^ This much is true. So many people are convinced certain things make no difference, so they won't hear a difference irrespective of whether there is one or not. And sometimes you can be listening for the wrong thing. And then something you first considered to be 'all the same' suddenly opens out into a myriad of different subtle shades. I remember listening to Hotel California solo and not knowing 2 different guitars were playing the outtro. Then once I'd been told about the change, it was bloody obvious.

but i had the same guitar before and after the SS refrte. Afterwards, it had that same "metallic edge" that Drex was talking of. Unmistakeable. Don't get me wrong, I am not complaining I love it..especailly on the mahogany Les paul, but yes, there was a very definite difference.
 
Re: 6000 stainless jumbo frets & tone?

but i had the same guitar before and after the SS refrte. Afterwards, it had that same "metallic edge" that Drex was talking of. Unmistakeable. Don't get me wrong, I am not complaining I love it..especailly on the mahogany Les paul, but yes, there was a very definite difference.

I can hear and feel the difference. The Doubting Thomases regarding subtle tone variables are usually unknown intraweb denizens, almost never well known luthiers or artists (maybe their tin ears have something to do with it....).

I'm just sayin'.
 
Re: 6000 stainless jumbo frets & tone?

If you are very familiar with the tonal character and response of your guitar, then a transition to larger, stainless frets will be a noticeable, albeit fairly small, change. A similar effect occurs when going from medium to jumbo frets, regardless of the fret material.

If, however, someone is trying to insist that stainless always equals a brighter tone, that's arguable. I prefer stainless myself for the wear resistance and smoothness when playing. Half of the guitars I own have stainless frets, the other half do not. I have also owned a handful of Parkers, including the Fly, NiteFly and early P-series models. Many of the bright characteristics of the Parker guitars are directly related to their construction. Even the NiteFly SA has a graphite fretboard, graphite neck shell and low-mass headstock with a thin body joint.

Simply put, there are so many variables involved that, unless you're doing a before-and-after comparison on your own instrument, you could easily have 2 of the same model guitar sitting side by side, one equipped with stainless and the other with nickel-silver frets, and not be able to tell a difference at all.
 
Re: 6000 stainless jumbo frets & tone?

For the sake of argument, let's say I concede that stainless wire may make a tonal difference (which to be quite honest I was expecting when I first began working with it). Now I want to prove that it does, but also want to make sure there could be no doubt left as to whether it was simply placebo effect or confirmation bias. I want to make sure people can't say that those who hear the difference are simply falling for something like this.

So I'll set up a blind test, where players can listen to notes played on different fret materials and try to identify a difference. I don't want any confusion with subjective descriptions getting in the way, so I'll stick to test methods which only ask whether different tones have qualities that are same or different, like an odd-one-out or up-down style test.

Of course repeatedly refretting a guitar through the course of a test is not only impractical, but introduces long lags between listenings, makes consistent playing in comparative sessions near impossible, and presents enormous challenges that nothing has changed even slightly in setup or perfectly consistent seating of the frets each time you pull old ones out and put new ones back in.

Playing several identical guitars may be a good option, but they would have to be made from consecutive cuts on the same board, cut on the same machines, weighed out to precision matches, and set up to exacting tolerances to minimize potential control issues. This would of course be expensive as well, as you would need several of these guitars made, 3 or 4 at the very least for any reliable survey results. Plus there would be the issue of lag between samples, consistent positioning of the hands and attack - all these things could have potential to interfere with the comparison, and even if the changes were only slight, be enough to lessen listeners' odds of identifying differences correctly.

No, I want my to make sure listeners and players have the best possibility to correctly identify even the slightest differences if there are any, and to prove that it could only be the frets causing these effects I want to make sure there are no other variables changed. For this I can't imagine a better opportunity to hear a difference than putting both stainless and nickel frets in the same neck. All wire from the same rolling mill, installed the same way at the same time in the same board, same setup, strings, and the player can move from one to the other instantaneously, so that even if they aren't intimately familiar with the nuances of the particular test guitar their tonal memory would only have to last milliseconds to hear a change so immediate. If a change can be heard between dropping a guitar off for a refret and picking it up days later, or setting down one guitar and picking up another, than most surely the effect would be crystal clear if you could move back and forth between wires without missing a beat. Surely I can think of no better opportunity to hear a difference, and prove definitively that it could only be due directly to the change in fret wire alloy.



Of course I don't believe there is a difference (although I once did long ago). Still, this is what I do. If I believe there is no difference and want to put this position to the test, I try to do everything I can to prove my position wrong. I try to create the perfect storm, circumstances so ideal for identifying a difference that if there is even the slightest noticeable effect it will have the best possible opportunity of being identified. Of course if even a small percentage of listeners do demonstrate ability to make a statistically significant positive identification of which frets are different, then I will be quite ready to change my position, but in all the stainless partial refrets I've done to date, and the more recent test guitar fretted specifically for this survey, I have yet to find such listeners who can identify any better than by random chance, even in the most unrealistically ideal scenario for hearing a difference I could muster up.

With all the time I've invested in this issue, and the inability to find any listener to date able to pick out a change under optimal circumstances in a controlled blind test, I have to hold that differences others hear with stainless are either placebo effect, or perhaps more likely very real changes that do occur, but are the result of peripheral changes that were present between comparisons due to lack of diligent controls. For the most part I am not challenging the notion that others do indeed hear real differences, but rather asserting that controlled test evidence indicates those changes are more likely due to other factors which lacked ideal controls rather than the wire alloy itself.
 
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Re: 6000 stainless jumbo frets & tone?

I can hear and feel the difference. The Doubting Thomases regarding subtle tone variables are usually unknown intraweb denizens, almost never well known luthiers or artists (maybe their tin ears have something to do with it....).

I'm just sayin'.

Just love these arguments.

No surprise that you couldn't feel the spirits passing through the room during the seance, with your chakra all twisted as it is.

You telling me you didn't see that yeti that just passed over the hill? Man, you really need to get your eyes checked.

Sorry my friend, but these challenges of ability to discern and insults to others level of discretion just don't work. I do hope you can see the immediate failure of such arguments.
 
Re: 6000 stainless jumbo frets & tone?

Seeing as how they are two different alloys, it's pretty much a reality of physics that there will be SOME sort of difference. They certainly feel different, nobody denies that. The question really is can anyone truly perceive that difference. If you say "I can't hear any difference at all", all that tells me is that you can't hear any difference at all.

I'm ready to agree there's no audible difference, but I don't really see a point in moving from one subjective opinion to another. I'd rather settle on the view that there is a difference, but the degree to which there is a difference is unknown.
 
Re: 6000 stainless jumbo frets & tone?

It is kinda hard to argue with David's testing. Experienced people were trying to find the stainless frets but could not.
 
Re: 6000 stainless jumbo frets & tone?

Keep in mind that a Parker has a Carbon Graphite finger board. That alone will make it brighter regardless of the fret material!!!!!

True! I have a guitar with SS frets and love em as they are smooth and will almost never wear. It also has the parker Carbon epoxy board and emgs. so the attack is alittle more crisp, but that could be any of those 3 factors. I wouldnt hesitate to have SS frets on any guitar.
 
Re: 6000 stainless jumbo frets & tone?

I know someone who wanted SS frets on his number one, and after the refret, complained that the guitars sound was ruined. The tech fretted the neck again, but this time with nickel.

Guess what, they guitar sounded the same after the second refret. The act of refretting the guitar alone caused the tonal change, and not the fret wire.

I love SS wire, and would never go back to nickel.
 
Re: 6000 stainless jumbo frets & tone?

Drex - here are a few of the theories I've mulled over.

As said earlier, when I began working with stainless I expected a difference, and indeed believed to perceive one on refrets I did (which in hindsight was poor comparison because I was typically comparing old, worn out, often loose frets to new, well dressed, well seated new ones). It was only after finding a lack of stark difference in my first few partials that I started to question this position.

My theory is just one of weakest links. If the rest of the chassis (fretboard, neck, body, bridge, etc) dampens any signal to a greater degree than damping differs between nickel and stainless frets, then the difference would be moot and washed out in the end results. If you mount a steel beam and a brass beam on a plate of steel and strike them with a hammer, you could no doubt measure a difference in how much the hammer bounces back. Mount the same beams on a piece of rubber, and the difference will likely be obscured. Perhaps compared to the differences between stainless and nickel wire, the fretboard and neck are rubber.

As you may see, I do believe it reasonable that there should be a difference, and am trying to rationalize why such effects seem to have evaded identification in blind testing done both by myself and others.

Now here's another theory which I'm not sure about, but will put out there anyway in support of the idea that stainless wire does affect a change in tone. I could share countless anecdotes where I've altered or adjusted clients instruments in ways I am positive could not have influenced any acoustical changes (sometimes a net zero change in every regard from beginning to end), yet in the end heard a difference in tone which was undeniable. In these cases I am quite confident that the change in tone came from the player's hands, as a result either of how they felt about the instrument or how comfortable it felt in their hands. The changes were very real, yet not attributable by laws of physics to any alterations on the instrument itself.

Now as you say, when well polished stainless does seem to feel noticeably different, with less friction as you bend across a fret (perhaps not due to the coefficient of friction of the alloys, but rather the degree to which it polishes out and holds a polish). Even if this does not directly affect changes in damping or reflection, it could quite reasonably affect how the player interacts with the instrument, thus changing the tone in an indirect way. This may not be noticeable on the many acoustics I've refretted due to the stiffer strings and different playing styles used. It may not be noticeable on my test guitar or the one Glaser made, because when fretted a string still sees the friction of at least one nickel fret even if behind the finger (Joe's test neck used alternating frets, mine has six randomly placed with only one area of consecutive stainless).

Is this theory plausible? I really haven't decided yet, but it seems a reasonable idea to consider. With this in mind my tests could not prove that no impact on tone at all is made by different alloys, but simply rather that the effects could not be credited to acoustical properties of the wire. This could still leave open possibilities not only of placebo effect, (if you know the frets are stainless), but also from effects on interaction between the player and instrument by changing the feel, which could result in an indirect yet very real effect on tone.

I dunno. It's an idea.

I'll bring this guitar up to a seminar I'm presenting at this summer with Roger Sadowsky, Tom Ribbecke, Linda Manzer, Tom Murphy, and number of other great luthiers (wish Seymour could make it back again this year), and get their take on it. The sampling and surveying I've done with this particular test mule has been too small to extract any meaningful results from yet, so it's an ongoing project. I'm sure I'll have results to put out on it eventually though. Until then...
 
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Re: 6000 stainless jumbo frets & tone?

If nickel silver medium frets guitar change to Dunlop 6000 stainless super jumbo frets, will it be change the original sound?
For example less woods sound and more metallic sounding?

I think likely yes. I don't think it is so much the mass, but the very high frets which cause the lever forces on the fretboard.

As for the mass, if you have double width and double height you have 4x mass. That's a handful.
 
Re: 6000 stainless jumbo frets & tone?

I think likely yes. I don't think it is so much the mass, but the very high frets which cause the lever forces on the fretboard.

As for the mass, if you have double width and double height you have 4x mass. That's a handful.

On a side note, stainless steel wire is a lower density than nickel silver.
 
Re: 6000 stainless jumbo frets & tone?

I'd be willing to wager however, that if you were told it was a stainless refret but they actually used nickel, that you would have perceived the exact same differences. Joe Glaser has done comparisons similar to mine, where both nickel and stainless frets were installed in the same neck to be transitioned across in real time, and just like in my tests, no one was found able to identify a difference under these tight controls and close to ideal conditions as possible.

Who knows? I've never done a straight across comparison like that. The bigger size/mass of the fret might make more of a tonal change than the material itself. All I know is I love stainless frets. :D
 
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