81 over-sizzlely tone tamed by 24.75" scale or need another pup?

[Jack_TriPpEr]

I've got a guitar with sort-of-rare specs - the ESP LTD EC-331 FR which has the traditional Gibson LP characteristics (e.g. single cut, mahogany body, 24.75" scale) but has locking trem (Floyd Rose), active humbuckers, and 24 frets. The stock OEM/no-name brand active bridge humbucker is too bland (e.g. slightly too dark, almost muddy) for my tastes, but the most obvious choice for a replacement bridge pup (an EMG 81) is doubtful in my mind - I've sampled the 81 in the bridge of a number of 25.5" scale guitars with alder or basswood bodies and there was always a high-mids sizzle that I didn't like that I could not dial out via tweaks to the stompbox, amps and guitar's volume and tone pot settings. I have spent time finding and listening to pup shootout videos of the 81 against other pups but there was only one video where that offensive high-mids sizzle of the 81 that my ears hear consistently in a a "real world" situation at home with an amp and a different, 25.5", floyded alder-bodied guitar at home, was audible in only one of those many videos that I reviewed, so I couldn't put too much faith in either the good or bad attributes I heard in the other pups (or the 81 itself, for that matter ) that I thought heard in those videos. And this listening was done using decent-quality monitor-grade speakers (KRK Rokit 8s).

My concern about the popular recommendation to use an 85 in the bridge instead of an 81 is that based on videos I have watched/listened to, the 85 seems to suffer the same design issues that other 'for-the-neck' pickups have suffered - the 85 pup is too open and has more mids than I want. Also, to my ears, two online examples of the 18 volt mod for the 81 only increased the high-mids sizzle that I am looking to cut, and the 81x, Het 81, and 57 either don't reduce this high-mids offensive sizzle or they do reduce it but not enough. The SD Blackouts seem to reduce the high-mids offensive tones but only by adding unwanted (to me) volume to the low frequency band. My listens to videos featuring the Dave Mustaine LiveWires compared to the 81 didn't seem to indicate that a reduction in the high-mids sizzle was one of the improvements of the LiveWires over the 81. The EMG HA (yes, I know - its only an active single coil in humbucker-sized shell) seemed to my ears to be the only contender because it had zero of the offending high mid frequencies but it sounded like it needed more gain fed to it - but I don't know if in the video I watched whether it was already being fed max gain. Finally, I've tried DiMarzio DeActivators in a 25.5" floyded, basswood-bodied guitar and while in that setup it didn't have the offensive high-mids sizzle, it was still too dark in tone overall, and its hard to imagine that improving from going from basswood to mahogany body. But maybe my assumptions are just that - assumptions. So should I still first try an 81, 85, or DeActivator in this 24.75" scale guitar because those body specs might tame/negate the nasty high-mid frequencies that I am concerned about? Or is there another pup you would recommend? Or could that EMG-made "EXG" active tone control be the "fixer" for those nasty high mids in the 81? Or some other EMG preamp? etc.

Thanks!

 

[Funkfingers]

Re: 81 over-sizzlely tone tamed by 24.75" scale or need another pup?

Right now, my modified Charvel Model 3 has an EMG-HA in the bridge/Treble position. Flat, it sounds slightly like a Telecaster. (The innards of the EMG-SA, -HA and -RT are identical.) With the EMG-SPC mid booster dialled in, things fatten up. Mids fill out, the top end is smoothed off a little. No icepick!

Just occasionally, I wish the pickup would have some sizzle. Most of the time, I am happy with the Gilmour-ish approach.

What would be nice is an EMG-HLV. :naughty: Perhaps, they can make this as a custom order?

 

[Demanic]

Re: 81 over-sizzlely tone tamed by 24.75" scale or need another pup?

I would go with a set of DeActivators to be honest. They have a top end sizzle, no doubt. But they have a huge low end. You should be able to dial in a decent tone with enough sizzle, while still keeping the overall tone that you want. Or maybe I am wrong.

 

[Jack_TriPpEr]

Re: 81 over-sizzlely tone tamed by 24.75" scale or need another pup?

Right now, my modified Charvel Model 3 has an EMG-HA in the bridge/Treble position. Flat, it sounds slightly like a Telecaster. (The innards of the EMG-SA, -HA and -RT are identical.) With the EMG-SPC mid booster dialled in, things fatten up. Mids fill out, the top end is smoothed off a little. No icepick!

Just occasionally, I wish the pickup would have some sizzle. Most of the time, I am happy with the Gilmour-ish approach.

What would be nice is an EMG-HLV. :naughty: Perhaps, they can make this as a custom order?

Can the HA handle a lot of gain thrown at it if I want to do Metallica and Pantera type riffing? Will it 'express' all that gain accurately or does it stop short at a certain point because it is only a single coil design after all? I am also hoping it does not start sounding sludgy under high gain (?)

 

[stratguy23]

Re: 81 over-sizzlely tone tamed by 24.75" scale or need another pup?

The 81's defining characteristic is its high mid spike. You won't be able to counter that just by changing scale length. And if you need to "correct for" a pickup, you probably shouldn't be using it in the first place.

The Mustaine Livewires are patterned after the JB/Jazz set. JB is also defined by its high mid spike, so, yeah, that isn't the best choice for you, either.

You've said what you don't like, but maybe you should say what you do like - it's unclear what you're looking for other than "not this" or "not that".

If you're looking for a flat/neutral EQ pickup, D Activator is a good suggestion. Very hot, very even EQ. I couldn't make it work in a basswood RG (sounded bland), but Whitechapel makes them sound awesome in mahogany guitars.

I don't know about HA in bridge position, but Rob Cavestany from Death Angel and Robb Flynn from Machine Head use it in the neck position, so it can handle high gain, presumably for soloing (don't know about "riffing").

 

[stratguy23]

Re: 81 over-sizzlely tone tamed by 24.75" scale or need another pup?

Also, if you want to stay with actives, you might want to try the EMG 57. It's vaguely PAF-ish (though high output) and while bright in the bridge position, it doesn't have the high end sizzle of the 81. The 60 and 60A (and their X variants) might also be candidates for you, though I don't have personal experience with them.

 

[Myaccount876]

Re: 81 over-sizzlely tone tamed by 24.75" scale or need another pup?

I tried the 81 in my main guitar. For some reason, it sounded real dark in that guitar, and there wasn't as much aggressive high-mid bite as I expected. Too much sizzle very well can be an issue related to matching the pickup to the guitar, but I think it'd be in your interest to try SD Blackouts (the normal one, the metal version may be too midrange heavy to your liking). From the clips I've heard, it's darker than an 81; not having so much sizzle, and with added depth. If they're too bass heavy, you can wire your tone control to cut lows, or use an EQ pedal.

That, or maybe the active pickups out there on the market just aren't for you.

 

[dominus]

Re: 81 over-sizzlely tone tamed by 24.75" scale or need another pup?

The 85 isn't "for the neck", it's just that people are incorrectly using it in that position.

 

[Jack_TriPpEr]

Re: 81 over-sizzlely tone tamed by 24.75" scale or need another pup?

The 85 isn't "for the neck", it's just that people are incorrectly using it in that position.

Haha. I will not debate you on that.

 

[Jack_TriPpEr]

Re: 81 over-sizzlely tone tamed by 24.75" scale or need another pup?

some helpful points and questions, StratGuy23, thanks.

You've said what you don't like, but maybe you should say what you do like - it's unclear what you're looking for other than "not this" or "not that".

Besides the lack of any high mid spike in the HA60, I also really like the sound of the Ibanez Lo-Z bridge active bridge pup that came stock in my Ibanez ART300, which has typical LP stylings/attributes (24.75" scale, mahogany body, set neck, single cut, non-tremolo bridge). Apparently other ART series owners like these pups too and are holding onto them, because I can't find any for sale used on Ebay or Reverb. There's nothing this Ibanez pickup "has" that I like over a 81, just that it *doesn't* have that high mid spike like the 81 has. I have an LTD M-300FM (25.5" scale, alder superstrat body, floyd rose bridge) that has the 81 in the bridge and so I have firsthand experience with the tones of the 81 in the bridge. But maybe the high mid spike would be squashed/subdued in the darker wood/darker scale of the LTD EC-331 FR that mentioned in my first post? It has an ESP Designed ALH-200B pup in the bridge slot, and my complaint about that pup is that it is bland and too subdued compared to the Ibanez Lo-Z pup.

If you're looking for a flat/neutral EQ pickup, D Activator is a good suggestion. Very hot, very even EQ. I couldn't make it work in a basswood RG (sounded bland), but Whitechapel makes them sound awesome in mahogany guitars.

I have a pair and I may end up trying them. I just haven't been optismtic about the D-Activators after hearing how dark they were when trying them in my similarly spec'd guitar a few months ago (Epi LP that has mahogany body, 24.75" scale). But maybe I should go ahead and try anyways since I have them available/on-hand. By the way, like you I didn't like the D-Activators in a basswood, floyded RG - too dark. I moved away from that RG completely after several replacement pup attempts - not sure if this was typical of basswood and so basswood just isn't for me, or this particular guitar was made with a piece of basswood that just happened to be tonally dead/dark. It had very rolled off highs and boomy low mids.

 

[dominus]

Re: 81 over-sizzlely tone tamed by 24.75" scale or need another pup?

Besides the lack of any high mid spike in the HA60, I also really like the sound of the Ibanez Lo-Z bridge active bridge pup that came stock in my Ibanez ART300, which has typical LP stylings/attributes (24.75" scale, mahogany body, set neck, single cut, non-tremolo bridge). Apparently other ART series owners like these pups too and are holding onto them, because I can't find any for sale used on Ebay or Reverb. There's nothing this Ibanez pickup "has" that I like over a 81, just that it *doesn't* have that high mid spike like the 81 has.

I have a set of LO-Z3s I could sell you.

 

[stratguy23]

Re: 81 over-sizzlely tone tamed by 24.75" scale or need another pup?

ESP and Ibanez aren't known for good stock pickups, and I'm not familiar with either one you mentioned. But 81 is a really extreme sounding pickup - it's the "most" at what it does, so pretty much every other pickup out there is going to do "not 81".

Myaccount876 raises a good point about pickups working differently in different guitars. So without knowing the natural characteristics of your ESP (is it dark, bright, etc.) and what tone(s) you're trying to get, it's hard to prescribe a magic bullet.

If you know what problem you're trying to solve, then EQ charts can help you. If you go passive, SD and Dimarzio both publish EQ charts for their pickups, and both company websites have wizards/pickers that help you choose pickups based on what what problems you're trying to solve.

 

[DrNewcenstein]

Re: 81 over-sizzlely tone tamed by 24.75" scale or need another pup?

The main problems with basing your tonal decisions on online vids are:
-poor camera/mic quality. Doesn't matter how good your monitors are, crappy sound through good speakers just sounds crappy better. If they're hi-resolution enough, you hear the peanuts and corn in the crap. Compression artifacts applied by the conversion process and filters also.
-the playing character of the player using the pickup/amp/guitar in question - do they have a naturally brighter tone? Do they dial in their EQ to get the sound you're hearing?
-the gear being used might have been tweaked to achieve a specific tonal outcome with that pickup - cab speakers, etc. This is especially true for head-to-head comparisons, where the author/host/player runs the same EQ for all comparisons, then dogs the ones that don't match their particular favorite with that EQ setting, ignoring the fact that their EQ will have to be adjusted for each pickup.
You also have the "this is why I hate this pickup", where the player's approach determines their playing/attack, which in turn affects their final tone recorded by their crappy mic and then scaled down mercilessly to a lower bit-rate on their system, and then even further by YouTube's converters.


However, I will say I've never been a big fan of EMGs, particularly the 81. I do prefer the 85 or 89 in the bridge, and either an 89 or another 85 in the neck, though the 81 can serve some use in the neck for high-gain solos.

 

[Johnny the Kid]

Re: 81 over-sizzlely tone tamed by 24.75" scale or need another pup?

I just dealt with this on my 7 String Les Paul. The 81 was great in the bridge. The 707 (essentially an 85) sucked in the neck. The 707 was good in the bridge and the 81 was okay in the neck.

Changed both out for an EMG 57/66 set.