A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

[DreX]

I'm interested in seeing how much the frequency response differs between different types of wood, mostly to satisfy my own curiosity, but I'd like to do a good enough job that the results would reasonable useful, objective and worth sharing.

All I'm interested in determining is how much variation in tone can be observed simply by swapping out the pieces of wood in a simple test rig, and it seems to me that it shouldn't matter much that the test rig contain all the features of a working guitar, so with that in mind, I have a few questions pertaining to the complexity or, preferable, the simplicity of the experiment:


1) could I use a simple 2x4s, 2x8 or 2x12 board, or is there a compelling reason that the wood be the shape of a guitar and have a proper neck?

1.2) is there a compelling reason to have a typical metal saddle and nut, or it is enough that both ends of the string be firmly attached to a single piece of wood?

2) could I simply use different species or types of wood (wood scraps), or is there a reason I should only test common guitar woods, such as poplar, ash, etc. in order to get a worthwhile result?

3) is an ebow an OK source for constant input, which to say, a uniform method of vibrating the string?

for all these questions, I'd add "if not, why not?"

 

[kramersteen]

Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

If you drop this spliff, it will fall down to the ground, because of something which lives in the air, called science.

 

[Tonewoods]

Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

Seeing as they locked- then apparently 86'd all together- the other thread which itself was pretty benign and on topic, I kinda suspect this is a church of believers. We all saw what the Admin posted as far as his 'beliefs' on where tone comes from. That's kind of a problem. It leaves us with the Galileo dilemma; those in a position of authority actively hostile to fact, so express the truth and get burned at the stake or just leave it alone.

I'd love to have an on point discussion on how to go about testing it as long as we're sure its OK and nobody will claim its 'trolling'.

 

[Tonewoods]

Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

If you drop this spliff, it will fall down to the ground, because of something which lives in the air, called science.

There's also the annoying problem of ^ this sort of thing ^ consistently chiming in the middle of the discussion.

 

[kramersteen]

Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

Can you log onto two accounts at once?

 

[DreX]

Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

I'm only interested in discussing the test procedure, and then hopefully the results. Nothing else.

 

[kramersteen]

Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

I'm only interested in discussing the test procedure, and then hopefully the results. Nothing else.

We can do that with the power of a science blindfold test.

 

[DarkMatter]

Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

Hey everyone, I just popped a fresh bowl of popcorn.

 

[beaubrummels]

Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

I'm interested in seeing how much the frequency response differs between different types of wood, mostly to satisfy my own curiosity, but I'd like to do a good enough job that the results would reasonable useful, objective and worth sharing.

All I'm interested in determining is how much variation in tone can be observed simply by swapping out the pieces of wood in a simple test rig, and it seems to me that it shouldn't matter much that the test rig contain all the features of a working guitar, so with that in mind, I have a few questions pertaining to the complexity or, preferable, the simplicity of the experiment:


1) could I use a simple 2x4s, 2x8 or 2x12 board, or is there a compelling reason that the wood be the shape of a guitar and have a proper neck?

1.2) is there a compelling reason to have a typical metal saddle and nut, or it is enough that both ends of the string be firmly attached to a single piece of wood?

2) could I simply use different species or types of wood (wood scraps), or is there a reason I should only test common guitar woods, such as poplar, ash, etc. in order to get a worthwhile result?

3) is an ebow an OK source for constant input, which to say, a uniform method of vibrating the string?

for all these questions, I'd add "if not, why not?"

Frequency response of anything should be tested with pink noise. What would be the right device to stimulate the surface, and what would be best to pickup/measure the results would be a whole other set of arguments. Strings would not be a valid test as they have a specific pitch when tightened/tuned. Resonant frequency and response of the wood would not be constant by species. Width, height, depth, water content (how dry the wood is), temperature, etc all would contribute something to the results. You are trying to simplify a test that is really more complex than your assumptions. This is going to lead to inaccurate results. The way you are going, you would only be able to walk away with generalizations that only apply to your specific test.

 

[kramersteen]

Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

Hey everyone, I just popped a fresh bowl of popcorn.

I just want tone pudding now.

 

[kramersteen]

Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

Frequency response of anything should be tested with pink noise. What would be the right device to stimulate the surface, and what would be best to pickup/measure the results would be a whole other set of arguments. Strings would not be a valid test as they have a specific pitch when tightened/tuned. Resonant frequency and response of the wood would not be constant by species. Width, height, depth, water content (how dry the wood is), temperature, etc all would contribute something to the results. You are trying to simplify a test that is really more complex than your assumptions. This is going to lead to inaccurate results. The way you are going, you would only be able to walk away with generalizations that only apply to your specific test.

He needs more blindfolds and tonewoods.

 

[Little Pigbacon]

Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

I'm only interested in discussing the test procedure, and then hopefully the results. Nothing else.

Yep. I'm talking to all of you when I say this: The way I see it, discussing who's who in the various factions, and whose viewpoints are valid and whose aren't, is just more "my daddy's pickup truck" banter. I want science, ******.

 

[kramersteen]

Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

i personally prefer hilux.

 

[David Collins]

Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

Lots of ways those questions could be answered - more than I could really bring myself to type at the moment. Much depends in the scope and extensiveness of the test, and how thorough and comprehensive you want the results to be.

Where are you located at? I'd love to collaborate with others on a test of this type. We should talk some time.

 

[DreX]

Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

Frequency response of anything should be tested with pink noise. What would be the right device to stimulate the surface, and what would be best to pickup/measure the results would be a whole other set of arguments. Strings would not be a valid test as they have a specific pitch when tightened/tuned. Resonant frequency and response of the wood would not be constant by species. Width, height, depth, water content (how dry the wood is), temperature, etc all would contribute something to the results. You are trying to simplify a test that is really more complex than your assumptions. This is going to lead to inaccurate results. The way you are going, you would only be able to walk away with generalizations that only apply to your specific test.

For this test, the question is basically "does wood matter at all?", so I'm not necessarily trying to profile the response of a species of wood, so I shouldn't have to worry about how representative a sample is of that species, or how much sap or mositure is in the wood, what part of the tree it came from, how many samples are tested, etc, because all that would matter is that there is or is not a difference.

I'm open to using a noise generator and a microphone or piezo or something, but since the practical application is guitar, I'd think a string and a pickup would satisfy the "problem domain".

 

[David Collins]

Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

I could write out a long syllabus of reasonable methods and concerns to be considered in such testing, but it would be longer than I could reasonably start on tonight. Perhaps tomorrow.

I'll quickly loose interest in continued discussion here if this thread goes anything like the prior though. So, if your comment does not focus on contributions of value to the original topic (specifics of test procedures), please don't post it here. Start another thread for gripes, keep this one clean, and maybe it will lead somewhere productive.

 

[David Collins]

Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

For this test, the question is basically "does wood matter at all?", so I'm not necessarily trying to profile the response of a species of wood, so I shouldn't have to worry about how representative a sample is of that species, or how much sap or mositure is in the wood, what part of the tree it came from, how many samples are tested, etc, because all that would matter is that there is or is not a difference.

I'm open to using a noise generator and a microphone or piezo or something, but since the practical application is guitar, I'd think a string and a pickup would satisfy the "problem domain".

I agree. While a signal generator and driver certainly has value in testing (I use these in testing, though more often with sweep than noise), I do believe that strings would be the most appropriate for this type of testing.

 

[DreX]

Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

Lots of ways those questions could be answered - more than I could really bring myself to type at the moment. Much depends in the scope and extensiveness of the test, and how thorough and comprehensive you want the results to be.

Where are you located at? I'd love to collaborate with others on a test of this type. We should talk some time.

That would be awesome, unfortunately we're almost on opposite sides of the country. I'm just curious to find out if wood matters at all, because I've thought it did, and I wonder if I was just fooling myself and blaming the wood when in reality it was something else.

I hope you find the time to do a test, you've got the shop and camera setup and the Youtube channel and electronic/audio measuring equipment, you're almost done before you've even begun.

 

[Jeffblue]

Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

So redundant a subject. What.....nearly 70 years of electric solid body guitar engineering and the science trolls want to re-invent the wheel. Reading about the properties of tonewoods, actually tapping and listening for resonance, we already have what our ears tell us so what would be the point of spending multi-thousands of dollars to do research of already pleasing tones? Mojo is what it is and over-thinking it isn't going to change the recordings that are milestone. No matter what the outcome of ANY scientific study is going to change how the big guitar manufacturers do business. Here's how I see it...........science wasn't what got Leo Fender involved in amplifier and guitar making..........it was trial and error and using his' ear. So you think Les Paul used scientific protocol to achieve multi-tracking or was it that he had an idea an how to blend the same voice and different guitar parts onto one track? Isn't it the sound waves we listen to with our ears while we pluck the strings and enjoy the tone? You need a visual display to satisfy your tone nirvana? Nonsense.

 

[David Collins]

Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

It's a shame we're so far apart. This type of project can be much more palatable when work can be shared by collaboration.

It does get complicated though. With nearly every step you take to simplify, there are almost inevitably some opportunities for influence in the outcome being missed. I course a line has to be drawn some here for "good enough", but if too many corners are cut, confidence in the results can quickly drop so low that you're left to wonder whether it was worth doing to begin with.