A thank you to my American friends

Re: A thank you to my American friends

Not many Aus guitars apart from custom made stuff.....Maton is of course the main homegrown 'brand' here

I want to thank Australia for Maton and then nut check you all because they're so friggin expensive.
 
Re: A thank you to my American friends

I think it's a combination of that, and the fact that companies use their "non-1st world" factories to manufacture to specific price points. I bet if you spec'd an R8 to the epiphone factory and allowed them to source the expensive wood and parts, and dedicate the labour time, they could make it. But I'm also guessing that in the end, the savings doesn't justify the move overseas. So the higher end stuff can be (reasonably) affordably made by the companies in the US or Japan or Europe.

The Epiphone Elitist line was essentially MIA-like specs made in Japan. Regardless of how people feel about the comparable quality, the fact was they cost twice as much as a standard Epiphone, and the line was almost entirely discontinued.

I think the take away is that having a guitar be made in America is a psychological prerequisite for most buyers who are looking to spend over $1,000. You see this same sort of rigorous consumer analysis with Scotch: the good ones are old, the bad ones are young. Almost no finer detail is able to transcend that prevailing assumption.
 
Re: A thank you to my American friends

The Epiphone Elitist line was essentially MIA-like specs made in Japan. Regardless of how people feel about the comparable quality, the fact was they cost twice as much as a standard Epiphone, and the line was almost entirely discontinued.

I think the take away is that having a guitar be made in America is a psychological prerequisite for most buyers who are looking to spend over $1,000. You see this same sort of rigorous consumer analysis with Scotch: the good ones are old, the bad ones are young. Almost no finer detail is able to transcend that prevailing assumption.

And that scotch has to be made in Scotland!

Esp. with the older makers like Martin and Gibson, there is a certain "authenticity" associated with the history of the brands as being MIA. Fender, too, although not so much in an old craftsmanship way than as a remarkable innovation from the postwar period. And that history has certainly been hyped through marketing.

It is weird, in that I completely appreciate guitars made everywhere, and I'm fully aware of the marketing being pushed on me, but I still buy into that mystique, to an extent. There are loads of wonderful acoustic guitar makers, and yet, when my wife gave me a Martin for Xmas a few years back, there was something extra about the history of the company that made it somehow more thrilling than an equally nice guitar from a newer or overseas company (or even one from a Canadian company, which you would think I'd appreciate more, being Canadian. At least I know with me it's not chavinism.)

Going back to the scotch comparison, though, I think Japanese guitars have now reached the point in a lot of peoples' minds that California and Australian wine have reached with wine fans who used to only like old world stuff. Although even those fans still seem to want the Japanese guitars at some kind of bargain price ("Got a 70s Greco. As good as my R8. Paid 600 bucks!) Even though they are perceived by many as equal (if not better) guitars, they aren't necessarily seen as being worthy of the brand premium pricing.
 
Re: A thank you to my American friends

I get what you mean. I mostly buy Fenders, and I like the fact that they are Fender, even if they are not MIAs. I think it's about buying into the legacy, like buying a guitar that's canon instead of fanfic. Each model they sell is a part of Fender's history, albeit a tiny spec. I have no illusions that Fenders are any better made than other guitars, though. They made well, and that's enough. I was tempted to pick up a Suhr Strat copy, because it had some nice appointments that Fender doesn't offer, but ultimately it was a little too shredder oriented.

The only difference I can feel with my MIA Fenders is that they seem to be carefully hand finished, the MIMs seem less carefully hand finished, and the MIJes seem almost too perfect, like the product of a well crafted CNC program.
 
Re: A thank you to my American friends

The Epiphone Elitist line was essentially MIA-like specs made in Japan. Regardless of how people feel about the comparable quality, the fact was they cost twice as much as a standard Epiphone, and the line was almost entirely discontinued.

I think the take away is that having a guitar be made in America is a psychological prerequisite for most buyers who are looking to spend over $1,000. You see this same sort of rigorous consumer analysis with Scotch: the good ones are old, the bad ones are young. Almost no finer detail is able to transcend that prevailing assumption.

That Elitist branding thing was just weird. When Epiphone first launched the line, they called it "Elite". Possibly due to what, I suspect, was a run-in with Pioneer's Elite line of TVs and electronics, they soon changed it to Elitist, which I thought had a certain connotation, you might say. Odd. Who hears the word elitist and automatically thinks of it as a good thing? I never saw one in a store, though, or else I would have checked it out; I was curious.

With today's prices, $1,000 doesn't go as far as it used to for those wanting an American-built guitar. Sure there are some options out there, but if you buy, say, a new $1,500 Jackson, you're getting an import. Might be a really good guitar, though, but the U.S. models are pretty much starting north of $2k. And people are paying $1,000 - $2,000+ for new Ibanez built all over the place.

When people buy a Fender, maybe, they're going to expect a US-made instrument for $1,000 and up. I think, apart from whatever patriotism or jingoism or whatever might be going on in a buyer's mind, there is probably often a thought process akin to: "Okay, I'm spending an amount that is a lot of money to me. I don't want to feel like I'm getting something that's been rigorously value-engineered down to every detail of the materials and building process to give me something that looks like the real thing but is a lot less expensive. I kinda want the real thing, not the Fisher-Price version. I want a guitar that sits at the grownups' table, not the little card table they set up in the other room for the kids to sit at." However flawed or exploited by the industry this line of thinking might be, I think it's very common.

Personally, I think that MIJ Lite Ash Tele my friend has is pretty grown-up. And if someone approached me about an American-made Ibanez he wanted to sell, I'd be very suspicious.

And Scotch. As with anything else with substantial subjective qualities, neophytes tend to grasp onto anything that can be easily quantified or discussed in objective terms. It's easier to look at a number or a word on a spec sheet and figure out what you're supposed to think about it than it is to spend the time actually using and experiencing the product and developing your own honest perception. The same thing plays out with just about everything money can buy.
 
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Re: A thank you to my American friends

The main reason I wouldn't buy an Elitist is the same reason I don't buy many MIA, it's spec'd well into that "diminishing return" territory. You're paying the price of two Epiphones for one Epi that has nearly imperceptible differences.

Which raises another question; let's suppose people only pay $2000 < for a guitar if it's made in the US. If the US were to sink into the ocean, and the Pacific and Atlantic became one, vast ocean, would anyone pay more than $2000 for a Les Paul ever again, or would those guitar economics sink along with the rest of the free world?
 
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Re: A thank you to my American friends

That's ridiculous. There are many perceptible differences. Maybe not enough to justify the price difference (I'll take mij almost any day of the week and pay good money, when I have it), but there ARE many and you don't have to go far to find them: bridge, electronics, nut, 1/4" plastic finish.

Imperceptible? Maybe to you...
 
Re: A thank you to my American friends

That's ridiculous. There are many perceptible differences. Maybe not enough to justify the price difference (I'll take mij almost any day of the week and pay good money, when I have it), but there ARE many and you don't have to go far to find them: bridge, electronics, nut, 1/4" plastic finish.

Imperceptible? Maybe to you...

Settle down, "imperceptible" and "nearly imperceptible" do not mean the same thing.

But hey, let's not pretend this isn't cork sniffing. If you blindfold the average guitarists and tell them they can feel up the head stock, they're not going to be able to tell you where a guitar came from with better than 50/50 accuracy. It's like if you have to be an audiophile to realize vinyl sounds better, then it can be said the difference is "nearly imperceptible".

To be honest, I'm afraid of doing an blindfolded test with Scotch or even guitar pickups, because I'm afraid I'll fail miserably, and this whole house of cards I've built up, about what I think I know, will come crashing down.
 
Re: A thank you to my American friends

I wouldn't worry too much about the blind test thing in any area. The fact that a person might be fooled or make a mistake doesn't, in my mind, invalidate preferences or knowledge. Often the preference for, say, MIA strats versus indonesian ones is one of probabilities: I can't say MIA strat x is better than MII strat y, but I might be able to predict that a MIA strat will likely be better than a random MII one.

Also, I've always had a problem with blind tests in guitars. Nobody actually plays that way (eyes covered, through random amp, being observed in a test situation) so the results are kind of predetermined to be wonky, at best. And most blind tests I've seen have been fixed, to an extent: In the guitar ones, it's usually a guy with a really awesome Epi or whatever who's testing it against a random MIA or whatever. The deck's already stacked because the Epi is known to be a special one.
 
Re: A thank you to my American friends

Settle down, "imperceptible" and "nearly imperceptible" do not mean the same thing.

But hey, let's not pretend this isn't cork sniffing. If you blindfold the average guitarists and tell them they can feel up the head stock, they're not going to be able to tell you where a guitar came from with better than 50/50 accuracy. It's like if you have to be an audiophile to realize vinyl sounds better, then it can be said the difference is "nearly imperceptible".

To be honest, I'm afraid of doing an blindfolded test with Scotch or even guitar pickups, because I'm afraid I'll fail miserably, and this whole house of cards I've built up, about what I think I know, will come crashing down.

I agree on your 2nd point but the 'nearly imperceptible' part is a big deal on something as feel-based as a guitar. As soon as I set my right hand on the bridge, I know whether it's an ABR-1, a Nashville/small post Gotoh, or a big-post with a wire and super-tall saddles with sharp edges. As soon as I put my hand on the neck I know if it's a Gibson 60s profile or just about anything else. As far as Fendery stuff, I get you. I'm not familiar enough with them to tell much apart from Strat and Tele, though the bridge clues me in, sometimes.
 
Re: A thank you to my American friends

I agree on your 2nd point but the 'nearly imperceptible' part is a big deal on something as feel-based as a guitar. As soon as I set my right hand on the bridge, I know whether it's an ABR-1, a Nashville/small post Gotoh, or a big-post with a wire and super-tall saddles with sharp edges. As soon as I put my hand on the neck I know if it's a Gibson 60s profile or just about anything else. As far as Fendery stuff, I get you. I'm not familiar enough with them to tell much apart from Strat and Tele, though the bridge clues me in, sometimes.

I'm not saying the average guitarist can or can't tell the type of bridge by feel, we're talking about "quality" rather than "qualities". I'm saying the average guitarist can't tell you if it's steel hardware or chrome plated pot metal. I'm not even sure the connoisseurs can tell, either, either by feel or by listening to the end result. Maybe there's a subtle difference between polished steel and chrome, I don't know. The moral of the story is it's subtle, and when I'm in a jam session, it's hard to not completely forget what guitar I'm playing after a few moments.

I agree that blind tests are of limited value, a lot of pickups or entire guitars show their biggest differences in particular circumstances, such as when playing certain style of music, with or without a pick, playing slow versus fast, near a particular end of the neck, etc. If just playing an open E, a lot of wildly different pickups can sound the same, and again, the point is that you'd pay twice as much for the Epi Elitist and possibly not realize it was any different than a typical Epi until that particular musical circumstance came along and tipped you off.

Side note, that lack of "circumstance" and context is a big shortcoming in most discussions about pickups. People talk about a pickup being brighter or darker, but omit what style of music they play, the type of sound they prefer to begin with, etc.

Another side note, I bet the only person here who could legitimately pass blind test is jeremy. When he's sure about something, he's very sure.
 
Re: A thank you to my American friends

Yeah, the problem with what is perceptible and what is not, is that we are humans. We are not equal, we are very varied actually. We don't share the same level of talents, abilities, strengths and weaknesses. We don't talk the same, walk the same, don't look the same, don't cook the same, don't think the same and what's most important in this case, don't hear the same.

In other words, under favorable conditions, some of us can tell the difference between 320kbps mp3 and uncompressed.
Not all of us, not on every system, not with every source material.

Another question is actually how similar or dissimilar a given pair of guitars are. Elaborating on that a bit: if the necks are hand shaped, there is very little chance an experienced player would confuse them. But pick two Fender necks shaped by a virtually identical router bit and finished in similar polyurethane clear and it's a different story.

What makes a real difference is not the "made in somewhere" decal but the actual process and the materials used.
 
Re: A thank you to my American friends

What makes a real difference is not the "made in somewhere" decal but the actual process and the materials used.

I don't know, I think the failure of the Elitist line challenges that notion. They were supposed to be MIA-grade guitars at a sub-MIA price, and they didn't do so well. You can blame marketing and the condescending name, but if something is a good value, it will sell enough to justify it's continued existence. Why else does Line 6 still exist?

The MIA Fender necks feel hand finished, the MIMs have a similar randomness in their feel, and the MIJ necks feel like a straight edge, I'll admit to these differences, but the question again is, if the US had a trade embargo with the whole world, and Japan made perfect copies of the MIA product, would the rest of the world pay the same prices for those guitars? I don't think so, I think people are paying for the prestige. It's similar to the idea that a Scotch isn't worth paying big money for unless it came from a cute little distillery in Scotland, made from the spring water of the nearby hills.
 
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Re: A thank you to my American friends

I think there is about a 20% MIA markup the market allows. So for a consumer to buy the ESP equivalent of a $2500 Les Paul, the MIJ guitar probably has to sell for 1999 to be competitive. Similarly, a top-notch overseas equivalent of a 1200 strat probably has to be under 1K.

There's a certain psychology, for want of a better word, with numbers. Certain threshold price points require a certain amount of quality and brand recognition (and that might include country of origin) to get a buyer "over the hump." I think a lot of guys who would pay 2500 for a Gibson would want the Japanese equivalent for under 2K. Then they'd consider it a good enough deal to go that way. Which is kind of silly, because in doing so they are effectively recognizing the 20% prestige markup as being just that.

Another one of those humps is $500. I think there is a lot more snobbery at that part of the market than gets mentioned. There's a lot of MIK v. MIC epiphone cork sniffery out there. It's just not as noticeable (or as annoying) as rich dudes and their custom shop/suhr/PRS AAAAA+++++ stuff.

The one exception to my theory, though, would seem to be Gretsch, who still command a pretty high "brand premium" and are MIJ.
 
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