After-marker transformers - hype or are they 'better' than stock ?

[SirJackdeFuzz]

This question is for all of you booteek amp builders, and for those who 'up-graded' your 'stock' over-the-counter amps with high-quality after market transformers, like MERCURY, HEYBOER, and so on.

What does the 'higher-quality' tranny do for your amp and tone ?

Lets take four popular/well-known amps.

* Vox AC30
* Marshall JCM800
* Fender Twin Reverb
* Fender Deluxe Reverb


What will i hear/experience with these amps, if replace the stock/original equipped trannies with the above mentioned units ?


PS : is there any other HIGH-quality well know transformer except Mercury & Heyboer, that is popular among Booteek amp builders ?

 

[zzmoore]

Re: After-marker transformers - hype or are they 'better' than stock ?

I am not sure you fully understand the question you are asking.
There is no set answer for a query of this magnitude.
Imagine asking.....If I upgrade my car, what will I experience from a Ford, Porsche, 4 Wheel drive, All wheel drive.?

If the PT in the amp is functioning to spec, there would be no reason to even "upgrade".
The OT is where advances can be had...typically in headroom and increased frequency response, especially in the lower register.
Most companies use good quality lams, of grain oriented Silicon-Steel. I doubt there is much audio advantage in the lams used by Heyboer over Hammond, just for One example.

Interleave windings, bobbin material, marketing and BS have to be dealt with just like with any other product.
What will YOU hear.?
You are asking a giant and unanswerable question.
What will you hear if you change your strings to Nines.? Some guys will curse the little bastards as they keep breaking...other players will be in sonic bliss.

In addition to the 2 you mention.? Cin-Tran, Edcor, Merren, Mag Comp, Hammond, Promitheus, Onetics, several companies in Europe, and some smaller hand winders

The variables are enormous.
Reflected Impedance...Core Size, Magnetic vs non-magnetic chassis', guitars used, volume, the room you are in compared to Joe Smith
Pick ONE amp...what tranny set is in it now...what changes are you trying/wanting to effect.?
best

 

[SirJackdeFuzz]

Re: After-marker transformers - hype or are they 'better' than stock ?

Thanks zzmore . . .


"If the PT in the amp is functioning to spec, there would be no reason to even "upgrade"."


I must then miss-understood some other threads i read on other well known guitar forums.

I also saw some 'up-grade kits' for cheaper well known amps (the Fender Blues Junior, Excelsior and Marshall Class 5 comes to mind) where a big part of that so-called 'up-grade kit' is a Mercury transformer.

http://mercurymagnetics.com/pages/mainframe.htm <--- even they have 'small amp UP-grade kits' on their site !



Is it all snake oil then ?

 

[SirJackdeFuzz]

Re: After-marker transformers - hype or are they 'better' than stock ?

From the MERCURY site :



Our "HOLY TERROR" Upgrade Kit features custom-tuned performance Axiom series transformers.
The same or higher quality as those used in boutique amps costing substantially more.
After you hear the improvement you'll never settle for stock transformers again.
The improvement in tone is beyond dramatic.
Remember, more than any other component, your amp's transformers determine its tone.




............................................. o0o .............................................




A stock Champ "600" (or Gretsch Electromatic) is a cool-looking little practice amp, but it lacks "I just wanna keep playing" tone.
Simply swapping the existing transformers for quality upgrades yields amazing tonal results -- but at Mercury we went for a knock-out!

Mercury already had ToneClones of the best-sounding Fender Champ transformer designs of all time.
But for the Champ "600" project we took a completely different approach to give the little amp even more -- utilizing our new Axiom technology.

The Axiom series are an exciting new concept in transformer design, and proprietary to Mercury. What do you get?
More harmonic overtones, more volume, more note definition (where you need it!) -- with tone that's saturated in sparkle and bloom.
As a result an upgraded amp is a pleasure and an inspiration to play.
And, the phenomenon of "ear fatigue" (the reason you don't want to keep on playing or listening) is virtually eliminated!

Mercury's kit has everything you need to upgrade your amp including detailed step-by-step, full color, illustrations, schematics and photographs to help guide you through the process.
Our Mercury Upgrade Kit dramatically transforms your Fender Champ "600" (or Gretsch Electromatic) into a keeper.

It's time you put on the pro gloves and got into the ring. Treat yourself to the best little amp money can buy.
Call Mercury now to order your upgrade kit -- or for an authorized installer near you

 

[Dr. Vegetable]

Re: After-marker transformers - hype or are they 'better' than stock ?

I don't know the answer, but I'm sure DreX will be along any minute now to school us on what the word "better" means.

From the MERCURY site: ...Remember, more than any other component, your amp's transformers determine its tone.

...but I am almost certain that the portion of this claim that I have highlighted is complete hyperbole. Changing the tubes can completely alter the character and gain structure of an amp. I seriously doubt you can get anywhere near the change in tone with a simple transformer swap. Quality components will probably sound better than average or crap components, but that marketing claim is akin to saying that the tires are the most important factor in determining your car's performance on the road.

If the benefit was obvious, they wouldn't have to rely on inflated claims to sell the product.

 

[zzmoore]

Re: After-marker transformers - hype or are they 'better' than stock ?

I am not saying that a tranny change is tantamount to "snake-oil".?
Read my post again and just ponder for a moment.
It sounds like you Really Want to hear a fantastic change from all this.
What amp are YOU dealing with.?
Like I say...this is all case by case

From your post....."The Axiom series are an exciting new concept in transformer design, and proprietary to Mercury. What do you get?
More harmonic overtones, more volume, more note definition (where you need it!) -- with tone that's saturated in sparkle and bloom.
As a result an upgraded amp is a pleasure and an inspiration to play.
And, the phenomenon of "ear fatigue" (the reason you don't want to keep on playing or listening) is virtually eliminated!"
Mercury excels at advertising (as well as making a fine tranny). Do you ever read stuff like that from Any Other winder.?

The Epi Valve Junior had a OT with a really mismatched primary impedance on the OT. A Lot of guys (myself included) installed a Hammond OT and got some pretty good improvement. But you also had to change the crappy circuit that the amp was built with. Doing THAT and just using (originally from Epi, not as additional cost) an OT of the same size and a better Impedance match would have gotten you a lot further for just a matter of pennies.

You can read all kinds of stuff, about magic wands for your amp. Carbon Comp resistors, caps with one type of dielectric or another that are hand made instead of machine made, cryo tubes, gold pin tubes, 130 dollar power cords, etc etc.
But a lot of that is marketing, myth, or again, case by case examples.

A pair of talented hands, holding a well set-up guitar, in to a simple circuit and a decent speaker will trump "upgrades" all day long.

Do you have any guitar "Heroes".?
Ever go see them live...think they sound fantastic, and then noticed they are plugged into a Stock, Fender, HRDlx that was backlined by the venue.?

What amp are you playing.?
LOTS of guys have made expensive OT changes, and not heard a difference.
Regardless of what Mercury would have you believe, there is No One Answer to a tranny change.
And they are Wrong Again...the speaker, more than the OT (unless it is a Real POS) has the biggest influence of component change you can make.

If you are hot to change your OT...take a Look at Magnetic Components. They have been winding for a LONG TIME...including for The Military. They make a great product, and it will be WAY less expensive than a Merc Mag.
best

 

[LReese]

Re: After-marker transformers - hype or are they 'better' than stock ?

I replaced the OT in my Princeton Reverb - Yes, it did significantly change the tone.

I think I liked the original better, but never got around to changing it back. The original was a lot looser sounding.

Also have a replaced OT in a Plexi RI - don't remember as much of a difference - its been 12 or 13 years.

 

[jeremy]

Re: After-marker transformers - hype or are they 'better' than stock ?

changing the PT or OT can make a difference, better is very subjective.

 

[jon the art guy]

Re: After-marker transformers - hype or are they 'better' than stock ?

If youve got the money and the yen for tinkering, I'd say try out a new OT if you're looking for a little..."more". If you're feeling particularly ballsy you could look for old OTs from amp guys. Sometimes its the rusty ugly iron that gives a certain character to the output. Also...more ohm taps if you want them.

off u see did MRSAge, I m on tapa talk and auto correct is hating on me

 

[Toe-Knee]

Re: After-marker transformers - hype or are they 'better' than stock ?

I wouldn't advise Mercury. Their units are vastly overpriced and most of that price is reflected in their advertising campaigns. That is pretty much what you are paying for with them. Sure they're ok units but not as nice as they should be for the price.

ZZmoore pretty much hit the nail on the head though.

 

[jon the art guy]

Re: After-marker transformers - hype or are they 'better' than stock ?

Also. If you have a cheapo tube amp a Hammond can actually be an upgrade instead of a replacement.

off u see did MRSAge, I m on tapa talk and auto correct is hating on me

 

[everdrone]

Re: After-marker transformers - hype or are they 'better' than stock ?

my thunderverb 50 has a large bass transformer which I think gives it that edge with heavy downtuned stuff I play

RE:

he Orange Thunderverb 50 is a bit of a unique design.

To start, it's a 2 channel amp that utilizes a special designed transformer that allows the amp to recreate bass frequencies all the way down to 30hz without loosing definition, and that is *REALLY* hard to do! Leave it up to the genius of Ade Emsley at Orange UK. I've had dinner with him on more than one occasion, and take it from me, the guy knows his stuff as well as anyone in the biz! His design allows the lower frequencies to really cut through when playing with drop tunings or baritone guitars. Naturally, it sounds stellar with regular tunings on normal guitars too!

 

[SirJackdeFuzz]

Re: After-marker transformers - hype or are they 'better' than stock ?

From another guitar forum :


"Just one personal example.I did my jcm800(2204) a while back.I replaced the 80's era 50 watt drake with an OEI vintage repro.The most noticeable change was the brittle high end(my opinion) was gone.In its place warmer, fatter, sweeter, thicker than before.More bottom thump.
Some may not like the change as it takes away some of that high end crispyness/buzz that was so popular in the spandex days of the 80's...but i like it.It sounds like an old Marshall now."

 

[SirJackdeFuzz]

Re: After-marker transformers - hype or are they 'better' than stock ?

And yet from another forum :


"New transformers will give you a new amp, for my deluxe, it really opened it up, breathed new life into it. I'd recommend it, the Mercury replacement transformer is nearly double the size of the stock Chinese piece of junk.
Also, as far as marshall transformers are concerned marstran is the way to go, I got those in my jmp, high quality stuff, at a fraction of the Mercury price."

 

[SirJackdeFuzz]

Re: After-marker transformers - hype or are they 'better' than stock ?

And yet from another forum :


"New transformers will give you a new amp, for my deluxe, it really opened it up, breathed new life into it. I'd recommend it, the Mercury replacement transformer is nearly double the size of the stock Chinese piece of junk.
Also, as far as marshall transformers are concerned marstran is the way to go, I got those in my jmp, high quality stuff, at a fraction of the Mercury price."

 

[SirJackdeFuzz]

Re: After-marker transformers - hype or are they 'better' than stock ?

I will be honest though, i am a bit confused . . .


. . . why do people call it an UP-grade, if it does not make your amp sound 'better' to your ears ?

My train of thinking is this : UP-grade = better

Down-grade = worst


. . . not so ?

 

[LReese]

Re: After-marker transformers - hype or are they 'better' than stock ?

I will be honest though, i am a bit confused . . .


. . . why do people call it an UP-grade, if it does not make your amp sound 'better' to your ears ?

My train of thinking is this : UP-grade = better

Down-grade = worst


. . . not so ?

Some upgrades might be considered more 'robust' in the reliability department.

 

[philthis]

Re: After-marker transformers - hype or are they 'better' than stock ?

be sure to know exactly what tone you are going for or at least the direction. a lot of companies will manufacture stuff guessing what they think you might like. I remember reading on here many people shoving big bold tranies in there amps and getting a bold loud punchy tone but all the sweetness and chime from there Fenders amps disappeared. turns out somebody did a little research and found out there is a natural compression that happens in a slightly smaller trany that makes it compress and chime better like the original Fenders from the 60's. I am not a tech and cannot prove this but I have heard the difference for myself and it seems to be true what was said. My new Fender 68 custom twin has a Schumacher trany thats more in line with the original supposedly and I will tell you it does have a very nice ringy and chimey tone. Not quite as good as an original 60's amp but it gets pretty close. Is it all due to the trany? I cant say I'm not a tech but Fender says thats what they were going for on this model and there other models in this series....the custom 68 deluxe reverb and custom 68 fender princeton seem to both have more of that vintage sounding chime as well with the same philosophy applied to there trany's as well. I'm not suggesting you are going for this tone, I am suggesting that according to experts the trany can make a substantial difference in the way the amp sounds and responds to your playing. remember though that an uninformed choice is a crap shoot at best. Think of what you are going for and maybe call a few companies and express your desire and get some free advice before you spend the money. I think you may be on the right track but that you also need to think about what you want to gain from the upgrade.
theres nothing wrong with tinkering for better tone...just ask Eddie VanHalen. keep us posted what you find out and good luck to you.

 

[dystrust]

Re: After-marker transformers - hype or are they 'better' than stock ?

IMO a transformer change only makes sense as an upgrade if the stock transformer is inadequate for one reason or another (such as the Valve Junior example). Starting with an amp with decent transformers, I'd expect minimal change if any at al. From those forum posts above, I'm very surprised about the JCM800 2204 as Marshalls from that era still had decent transformers. OTOH I've heard that a 100W JCM900 can be improved dramatically by putting in a beefier OT.

 

[SirJackdeFuzz]

Re: After-marker transformers - hype or are they 'better' than stock ?

Good info here . . . keep 'em coming !