"After-market wire-kits" - worth it ?

[SlowGroove]

Guys, so of you might know that i got my first humbucker guitar (Gibbo SG) last week-end, without PU's !

I bought it as a project guitar.
Read all about it here :

https://forum.seymourduncan.com/showthread.php?t=135493


On my short list of PU's is a set of Alnico2Pro's (my brother's PU's that i might get, as GAS is apon him again !)
I got everything except the PU's. All the pots and wires are there too, but looks like a bit of a mess - as i got it in a box !
(refin. project that never happend, hence the good price i got for it !)

So, my question is this :

Even though i have all the wires n'pots, is it worth looking into some "after-market wire-kits" ???

The RS-kits "sounds" (on B&W) like a good idea, but i do not want to blow $80.00 to $120.00 on pots n'wires if it is not gonna be worth it ?

http://www.rsguitarworks.net/rsstore/index.php?cPath=47_61

Has anyone ever used these "vintage" wire-kits ?
From RSGuitars, or any other shop ?
Does it really do what they claim ?
Do you get a vintage tone ? *
Does it improve tone ?

As usual, all info always welcome !


James



* How will 'new' vintage-voiced pu's sound "more vintage" with a vintage wire-kit ?

 

[Blue_Fingers_Jay]

Re: "After-market wire-kits" - worth it ?

First of all I never used anything from RSguitars so this is not a comment on their quality, but it's seems a bit overpriced.
That said I do agree with somethings, first of all some pots out there suck, you can't get a smooth or large sweep for example or they make a noise, but apart from this I don't worry too much, I find that there are some differences mainly between the pot values and their brigthness, as for the caps between different brands with the same values I only found a very slight difference in orange drops, they seem to be a tad warmer.

My advice is for you to try those pots, and see if they don't make noises or if you like the sweep, you already have them so you have nothing to lose and it may seem a mess but it's not that hard to solder.

 

[hamerfan]

Re: "After-market wire-kits" - worth it ?

If all your pots are 500k and you do not touch them (means all on them on 10 all the time). then i would say, stay away. Only other reason could be: you have strange noises while playing (as i have) because of a bad output jack and cheap pickup selector.
But if you are knob fiddler, i will be surprised how your sound will improve.

 

[Ayrton]

Re: "After-market wire-kits" - worth it ?

Just order a wiring kit from martin6stringcustoms.

Better quality parts will make a difference.

 

[uOpt]

Re: "After-market wire-kits" - worth it ?

Pots of same value don't sound different. You replace them if they scratch or otherwise malfunction, or if the value is too off (tolerance of cheap parts is +- 20%).

High quality capacitors is difficult to tell. Some can hear them, some don't. Even if the difference is there and so small you don't hear it in an A/B test with just the capacitor changed, it doesn't mean that this change doesn't become audible in combination with other below-standalone-audible changes. If there is a difference it is unclear whether just not using ceramic disks gets the job done or whether there's a difference between different "large" caps. This is a major research project that I haven't tackled yet.

Wire obviously doesn't sound different.

If you aren't experienced in soldering it might make sense to get something pre-wired. The solder points on the back of the pots (stupid idea anyway, they should put decent ground plates into the cavity and screw the pots into those) are notorious to be "cold" solder points and can come loose in those moments where the audience was thinking about throwing tomatoes anyway. You'll notice that my wiring always has double group loops at all pots although I have more than 25 years soldering experience.

I'm not too much a fan of the prewired kits because they don't have the "there's no such thing as overkill" attitude. I also use shielded wire more often than they do.

When reading about this on the Internet keep in mind that most people who comment positively on electronics changes made several changes at once and can't tell which one was decisive and which one wasn't. This then goes and and mixed with the problem that several inaudible improvements possibly add up to an audible one to make the mess complete.

Even those who tested single changes in isolation usually did so by hard changing things one way and never back. Very rarely you see people with A/B switches going back and forth.

Recording any of this is useless since the sound feeds back into your playing.

I hope that cleared up all your questions

 

[John Wymore]

Re: "After-market wire-kits" - worth it ?

Probably redundant, but if you have 500K pots in the guitar now and they are functioning properly and not damaged you should be fine. A good idea is to put an ohm meter on each pot (unwired from the guitar) and see how close they actually read to 500K. Typical tolerance is +/- 10% which is a noticable amount tone wise if you are one end of the range or the other.

Capacitors are another issue. If you have cheap ceramic disc caps in the guitar you can make your tone controls much more useful by investing in some decent capacitors. They are cheap and really do make a difference. Orange drops are cheap and work well. If you want to go top dollar you can look at Hovlands, Bumblebee's or Vitamin Q's.

One thing we do in our kits and I think RS does too is supply pots that are matched in resistance. This eliminates one tone variable from the mix. We also offer a special wiring diagram with our kits that helps prevent the roll off of highs as the volume is turned down. These may or may not be things you need or want but they are a couple advantages of buying a kit.

 

[Sporky McGuffin]

Re: "After-market wire-kits" - worth it ?

Pots of same value don't sound different.

Absolutely true, but there are better and worse tapers, which affect how smoothly the volume changes when you turn the knob. I'm not sure it makes an enormous difference.

 

[JumpMarine]

Re: "After-market wire-kits" - worth it ?

Generally speaking, due the fact that there are different quality CTS pots out there an upgrade will make a noticable positive difference. I've used RS Vintage kits in a R7 and my current strat and they are top notch in quality. I've also used both Martinsixstringcustoms LP kit and Wymoreguitars kits as well and couldn't have been more pleased with the quality.

 

[d1dsj]

Re: "After-market wire-kits" - worth it ?

I've got an RS Vintage kit in my L.P, and I have to say that I'm very pleased with combo of that kit with a Bro/ Seth bridge combo. The volume and tone controls are now very smooth and progressive, therefore making the most of the great pick ups.

 

[SlowGroove]

Re: "After-market wire-kits" - worth it ?

First of all I never used anything from RSguitars so this is not a comment on their quality, but it's seems a bit overpriced.
That said I do agree with somethings, first of all some pots out there suck, you can't get a smooth or large sweep for example or they make a noise, but apart from this I don't worry too much, I find that there are some differences mainly between the pot values and their brigthness, as for the caps between different brands with the same values I only found a very slight difference in orange drops, they seem to be a tad warmer.

My advice is for you to try those pots, and see if they don't make noises or if you like the sweep, you already have them so you have nothing to lose and it may seem a mess but it's not that hard to solder.

Thank You for the honest dadvice !
That is my main concern . . . being over priced, as i do not know how much those items will cost me if i had to go and buy it myself ! Or even if you can get them over the counter ?
That and the fact that they "might" do NOTHING to the tone at all !

And yes, i do have the origenal 'stuff', and i am not all that new to soldering either, so i have no problem with that side of things !


James

 

[SlowGroove]

Re: "After-market wire-kits" - worth it ?

If all your pots are 500k and you do not touch them (means all on them on 10 all the time). then i would say, stay away. Only other reason could be: you have strange noises while playing (as i have) because of a bad output jack and cheap pickup selector.
But if you are knob fiddler, i will be surprised how your sound will improve.

On my other two *guitars, i usually play my bridge tone wide open (10), and my neck between 7 & 8.
Vol is always wide open.


* Danelectro Pro (B&W ala Jimmi Page) & Gibson MM 2xPU (black)

So what do you recommend in this case ?


James

 

[SlowGroove]

Re: "After-market wire-kits" - worth it ?

Just order a wiring kit from martin6stringcustoms.

Better quality parts will make a difference.

Link please ?


James

 

[SlowGroove]

Re: "After-market wire-kits" - worth it ?

Pots of same value don't sound different. You replace them if they scratch or otherwise malfunction, or if the value is too off (tolerance of cheap parts is +- 20%).

High quality capacitors is difficult to tell. Some can hear them, some don't. Even if the difference is there and so small you don't hear it in an A/B test with just the capacitor changed, it doesn't mean that this change doesn't become audible in combination with other below-standalone-audible changes. If there is a difference it is unclear whether just not using ceramic disks gets the job done or whether there's a difference between different "large" caps. This is a major research project that I haven't tackled yet.

Wire obviously doesn't sound different.

If you aren't experienced in soldering it might make sense to get something pre-wired. The solder points on the back of the pots (stupid idea anyway, they should put decent ground plates into the cavity and screw the pots into those) are notorious to be "cold" solder points and can come loose in those moments where the audience was thinking about throwing tomatoes anyway. You'll notice that my wiring always has double group loops at all pots although I have more than 25 years soldering experience.

I'm not too much a fan of the prewired kits because they don't have the "there's no such thing as overkill" attitude. I also use shielded wire more often than they do.

When reading about this on the Internet keep in mind that most people who comment positively on electronics changes made several changes at once and can't tell which one was decisive and which one wasn't. This then goes and and mixed with the problem that several inaudible improvements possibly add up to an audible one to make the mess complete.

Even those who tested single changes in isolation usually did so by hard changing things one way and never back. Very rarely you see people with A/B switches going back and forth.

Recording any of this is useless since the sound feeds back into your playing.

I hope that cleared up all your questions

Well, it made 100% sence !

Thank You


James

 

[SlowGroove]

Re: "After-market wire-kits" - worth it ?

Probably redundant, but if you have 500K pots in the guitar now and they are functioning properly and not damaged you should be fine. A good idea is to put an ohm meter on each pot (unwired from the guitar) and see how close they actually read to 500K. Typical tolerance is +/- 10% which is a noticable amount tone wise if you are one end of the range or the other.

Capacitors are another issue. If you have cheap ceramic disc caps in the guitar you can make your tone controls much more useful by investing in some decent capacitors. They are cheap and really do make a difference. Orange drops are cheap and work well. If you want to go top dollar you can look at Hovlands, Bumblebee's or Vitamin Q's.

One thing we do in our kits and I think RS does too is supply pots that are matched in resistance. This eliminates one tone variable from the mix. We also offer a special wiring diagram with our kits that helps prevent the roll off of highs as the volume is turned down. These may or may not be things you need or want but they are a couple advantages of buying a kit.

Again, fantastic info - thanks so much !

How much for s set of the above mentioned "top-dollar" cap's ?

The mod you described last, is that like/simmilar to Fender's GreaseBucket mod on their Highway one Tele's ?


James

 

[uOpt]

Re: "After-market wire-kits" - worth it ?

So what kit at what price exactly are we talking about?

A more specific link?

 

[SlowGroove]

Re: "After-market wire-kits" - worth it ?

Generally speaking, due the fact that there are different quality CTS pots out there an upgrade will make a noticable positive difference. I've used RS Vintage kits in a R7 and my current strat and they are top notch in quality. I've also used both Martinsixstringcustoms LP kit and Wymoreguitars kits as well and couldn't have been more pleased with the quality.

FANTASTIC !

Now i need links to Martinsixstringcustoms & Wymoreguitars !

The help you get on this forum is the best i have ever came across - thanx to everyone, and keep 'em comming !


James

 

[SlowGroove]

Re: "After-market wire-kits" - worth it ?

So what kit at what price exactly are we talking about?

A more specific link?

This is the one i 1st hand in mind, but now that we have two other forum member that is doing the same thing, i would like to look into their products too !

http://www.rsguitarworks.net/rsstore/product_info.php?cPath=47_61&products_id=392


James

 

[SlowGroove]

Re: "After-market wire-kits" - worth it ?

I've got an RS Vintage kit in my L.P, and I have to say that I'm very pleased with combo of that kit with a Bro/ Seth bridge combo. The volume and tone controls are now very smooth and progressive, therefore making the most of the great pick ups.

Question for you :


Seeing that you have some of the best PU's in the world in your guitar, how do you think it would have sounded IF you did NOT install the RS Vintage kit ?
(thus keeping the wire'ing stock)


James

 

[uOpt]

Re: "After-market wire-kits" - worth it ?

This is the one i 1st hand in mind, but now that we have two other forum member that is doing the same thing, i would like to look into their products too !

http://www.rsguitarworks.net/rsstore/product_info.php?cPath=47_61&products_id=392


James

Mumble. I'm a little torn.

$110 for this is heavy but then it's pre-wired a fair bit and I don't doubt that they have good work quality.

I have to give RS credit for, while they sell some voodoo, they keep the voodoo talk down. So that say that making the capacitor smaller, at the same Farat value and some construction, makes a more "woody" tone. Whatever, but I've seen much worse.

At least you do get quality parts there. I have much less of a problem being overcharged for good parts than for bad parts.

Their special pots, I don't quite buy it. So the curve is different but is that a big deal? And isn't it a question of the individual guitarist?

If I did this stuff I'd pre-solder all connections to the ground that you'll ever need on the pot and give people easy-to-solder terminals to connect the ground from the pickups, plug and switch. That would be a great help. But the way it is, if Joe Random User comes along and solders ground right on top of the existing solder point the pre-wiring work is for nothing and only heated up the pot one more time than required.

Personally I'd go with one of our forum dealers and more stockish parts. I have bad experience with small-series parts of any kind.

 

[SlowGroove]

Re: "After-market wire-kits" - worth it ?

Mumble. I'm a little torn.

$110 for this is heavy but then it's pre-wired a fair bit and I don't doubt that they have good work quality.

I have to give RS credit for, while they sell some voodoo, they keep the voodoo talk down. So that say that making the capacitor smaller, at the same Farat value and some construction, makes a more "woody" tone. Whatever, but I've seen much worse.

At least you do get quality parts there. I have much less of a problem being overcharged for good parts than for bad parts.

Their special pots, I don't quite buy it. So the curve is different but is that a big deal? And isn't it a question of the individual guitarist?

If I did this stuff I'd pre-solder all connections to the ground that you'll ever need on the pot and give people easy-to-solder terminals to connect the ground from the pickups, plug and switch. That would be a great help. But the way it is, if Joe Random User comes along and solders ground right on top of the existing solder point the pre-wiring work is for nothing and only heated up the pot one more time than required.

Personally I'd go with one of our forum dealers and more stockish parts. I have bad experience with small-series parts of any kind.

Then i'd better start looking into their products !


James