Allen pole screws -double rows - why isn't every pup like that - so symmetric pretty?

[Larioso]

Hi
I was looking high and low picking my last set of pickups.
And very different what version retailers keep in stock, bobbin color and pole screws.

DiMarzio at least suggest you can pick any combination ordering - if you want the allen pole screws as one, black or metal.

But some pickups like PAF - I only saw regular screws, and then just big blank flat metal surface on other row pole pieces,

And some type pickup have only one row screws, why is that?

Does type of pole screw affect specs of pickup, or?
Does the PAF need more metal to sound right?

I just like the double row allen type, looking symmetric and nice. And you can emphasize a bit towards middle between pickups if you like, so flexible too. Instead of turning pickup 180 degrees, just up pole screws.

Did anybody order custom like from DiMarzio, can even the PAF 36th anniversary have double alllen screws?

Thanks.

 

[Clint 55]

Re: Allen pole screws -double rows - why isn't every pup like that - so symmetric pre

Cuz every pole set up has a different sound? Use the pole set up that has the application to what you need. Double hexz has a bass scooped and gritty sound comparatively. Standard pole set up is versatile and can be warm and balanced in the neck and bright in the bridge. Double filisters is warmer than double hexz but still more complex and gritty than standard. Double slug on pos pickups has an immediate and glossy sound. Demon screw set up has a very complex sound, a balance of the super gritty hexz and more round filisters...

 

[Larioso]

Re: Allen pole screws -double rows - why isn't every pup like that - so symmetric pre

So it does affect sound, thanks, good to know.

 

[Bowtomecha]

Re: Allen pole screws -double rows - why isn't every pup like that - so symmetric pre

Dimarzio does some other things like adding metal slugs in between the polepieces or using coils with different wire gauges. I think most of their pickups polepieces don’t even extend through or past the baseplate. Dimarzio uses different hex screws where there isn’t a head it’s all shaft.

 

[Bowtomecha]

Re: Allen pole screws -double rows - why isn't every pup like that - so symmetric pre

Wow okay lol that didn’t sound like that in my thoughts

 

[Clint 55]

Re: Allen pole screws -double rows - why isn't every pup like that - so symmetric pre

That's true. Dimarzio poles have different dimensions than sd. Even more variables.

 

[AlexR]

Re: Allen pole screws -double rows - why isn't every pup like that - so symmetric pre

The PAF was originally going to be a blank cover.....no pole screws at all.
It was only when the design was in the final stages that Gibson president Ted McCarty decided to change it so that there was at least 1 row of poles....so that it had at least something in common visually with the p90 it had been designed to replace.

When Larry Dimarzio was designing his pickup, he'd seen the exposed doublecream Gibson pickup in his 1959 Les Paul (and probably on the highly rotated photo of Eric Clapton's Beano LP), and decided on this look as a Gibson homage. Why he decided on allen screws rather than fillister like Gibson.....and why both bobbins the same is not something I have delved into. It could have been a price or tonal basis as both are relevant. Certainly making only 1 coil type means you set up 1 machine for winding only.....and assembly is streamlined too as you don't have to pick one of each type every time.

Screws alter tone with material, length and shape. All of these factors affect the magnetic field.
Slugs have more mass and are shorter too. The tone from identical coils with a slug pole tend to be beefier - or a bit more punch. They are fixed in place, meaning the tone from that coil cannot be altered the way raising and lowering poles changes tonal balance with screws.

 

[Mincer]

Re: Allen pole screws -double rows - why isn't every pup like that - so symmetric pre

Everything affects the sound to some degree. Keep in mind, you do have some choices in what you want. Some pickups can be ordered through the Shop Floor Custom program, if you are just talking about the color of the poles. Switching out kinds of poles would probably be a Custom Shop order.

 

[Aceman]

Re: Allen pole screws -double rows - why isn't every pup like that - so symmetric pre

Yes - the poles have an effect on the sound:
Longer vs shorter
Material
Size of the head
Ability to fine tune both rows

 

[PicoRiveraTele]

Re: Allen pole screws -double rows - why isn't every pup like that - so symmetric pre

Hi
I was looking high and low picking my last set of pickups.
And very different what version retailers keep in stock, bobbin color and pole screws.

DiMarzio at least suggest you can pick any combination ordering - if you want the allen pole screws as one, black or metal.

But some pickups like PAF - I only saw regular screws, and then just big blank flat metal surface on other row pole pieces,

And some type pickup have only one row screws, why is that?

Does type of pole screw affect specs of pickup, or?
Does the PAF need more metal to sound right?

I just like the double row allen type, looking symmetric and nice. And you can emphasize a bit towards middle between pickups if you like, so flexible too. Instead of turning pickup 180 degrees, just up pole screws.

Did anybody order custom like from DiMarzio, can even the PAF 36th anniversary have double alllen screws?

Thanks.

If the two coils have identical pole pieces, it will sound more "humbucker" because you will get equal output from both coils. But if they pole pieces are different, one coil will be louder than the other and it will lead towards a single coil sound. Since slugs and screws are not alike, that leads to a very slightly single coilish tone in favor of the coil with the stronger output, most likely the slug coil. If it has twleve hex screws, they outputs should be nearly identical, and therefore furthest away from the single coil sound.

 

[Chistopher]

Re: Allen pole screws -double rows - why isn't every pup like that - so symmetric pre

Why he decided on allen screws rather than fillister like Gibson.....and why both bobbins the same is not something I have delved into. It could have been a price or tonal basis as both are relevant. Certainly making only 1 coil type means you set up 1 machine for winding only.....and assembly is streamlined too as you don't have to pick one of each type every time.

It was a visual thing like the double cream bobbins. It was intended so that you could tell if someone was using DiMarzios from a distance.

 

[PicoRiveraTele]

Re: Allen pole screws -double rows - why isn't every pup like that - so symmetric pre

DiMarzio was offering a PAF type replacement pickup in the 70's, so I don't think they were just trying to save money by using hex screws. I'd say it's more evident that Seymour Duncan was going the cheap route, having their hot model, the JB, be little more than an overwound PAF while DiMarzio not only had the hex screws, but also the double thick ceramic bar in the Super Distortion. DiMarzio was trying to look futuristic and technological while Seymour Duncan was evidently trying to keep with the classic look.

 

[freefrog]

Re: Allen pole screws -double rows - why isn't every pup like that - so symmetric pre

And some type pickup have only one row screws, why is that?

I've NOT the answer to this question and I tend to think that talking is cheap, especially when it comes to reconstruct retrospectively the motivations of pioneer winders (or, worse, to depreciate their work without clear reasons: some people appear to see this criticism as a mission while they have never designed a pickup themselves).

Now, my humble hypothesis based on a subjective feeling is that DiMarzio extrapolated on Ray Butts's design: Filter'Tron's have double thick magnets and symetrical coils just like a Super D, albeit obviously the absence of cover + shorter hex poles of the DM lessen Foucault currents while its ceramic mag and overwound coils boost the "power" of the transducer.

Seymour has took the Seth Lover route... or rather, with something like the JB, he has extrapolated on Seth Lover's design as it had been modified by Gibson (since Seth Lover initially wanted two symetrical coils as recalled in the answer 7).
I don't see this choice as especially cheaper, since it required threaded baseplates, two kind of poles and more expensive AlNiCo mags... In my understanding, it was most probably a way to "expand" the classic P.A.F. design, born from the commercial requests of Gibson team leaders but whose sound happened to be shaped by its assymetrical structure (I vaguely remember Van Halen comparing the screws coil to a boomer and the slugs coil to a tweeter and there's something of it in the discussed design).

FOOTNOTE - ironically, DiMarzio recreated an assymetrical HB structure in another way thanks to the Dual-Resonance thing. So something tonally interesting appears to be present with assymetry, finally...

 

[orpheo]

Re: Allen pole screws -double rows - why isn't every pup like that - so symmetric pre

If the two coils have identical pole pieces, it will sound more "humbucker" because you will get equal output from both coils. But if they pole pieces are different, one coil will be louder than the other and it will lead towards a single coil sound. Since slugs and screws are not alike, that leads to a very slightly single coilish tone in favor of the coil with the stronger output, most likely the slug coil. If it has twleve hex screws, they outputs should be nearly identical, and therefore furthest away from the single coil sound.

I'm sorry man but this is absolute nonsense, hogwash to the Nth degree.

Let's take a look: the Dimarzio EVO uses 43awg wire as well as 44 awg, so the two coils have two different DC readings. But no one can in his right mind say that the EVO has a singlecoil-ish tone?! Come on. Give me a break.

Same goes for the Breed, Crunchlab, Liquifire, Mojo, Fred and I can't remember which ones more.

You don't make one coil 'louder' with different polepiees, you change the inductance of that coil in order to tweak the resonance peak of that coil, which in turn alters the tone you get from that coil, which in turn is used to create a specific sound the designer has in mind, when both coils are used.

 

[orpheo]

Re: Allen pole screws -double rows - why isn't every pup like that - so symmetric pre

DiMarzio was offering a PAF type replacement pickup in the 70's, so I don't think they were just trying to save money by using hex screws. I'd say it's more evident that Seymour Duncan was going the cheap route, having their hot model, the JB, be little more than an overwound PAF while DiMarzio not only had the hex screws, but also the double thick ceramic bar in the Super Distortion. DiMarzio was trying to look futuristic and technological while Seymour Duncan was evidently trying to keep with the classic look.

:scratchch

*Ceramic magnets were cheaper than alnico's.
*SD used and always has used and still uses nickel silver baseplates: much more expensive than brass baseplates.
*the JB was NOT an overwound PAF by any means. It was intended as a hot noiseless Tele pickup (I spoke with Seymour about this subject, at length, because I did not understand what the pickup was intended to achieve).
*the JB was wound with 44 awg wire, which was not an industry standard wire in the 70ies; the Super Distortion was wound with 43 awg, which WAS an industry standard since Fender used that wire on their singlecoils since the 50ies.
*Dimarzio tied into the double cream look because it set them apart from everybody else. That's the only reason. Larry wanted people to know IMMEDIATELY that it was HIS pickup in any guitar, hence the use of double cream bobbins with 2x6 polepieces because no one did that until then (can be argued against, but that's here not there right now: he got the trademark and we should stick with that, helas).

I for one do think that DMZ tried to make a production flow as easy and affordable as possible. Why I come to this conclusion? Simple. I tore apart half a dozen 70ies JB's and compared them to half a dozen SuperDistortions and the differences are very clear, in terms of construction and quality.

* The bobbins of Seymour Duncan were of much better quality, they didn't tend to crack around the polepieces.
* the SuperDistortion didn't use a retainer bar nor the maple spacer bar like Seymour Duncan. Only a brass baseplate WITHOUT HOLES for the polepieces, unlike Seymour Duncan.
* The baseplate's screw holes would wear out on the Dimarzio because brass is softer than nickel silver.
* Using a retainer bar + spacer is two extra parts, plus using two different coils (slug coil + screw coil), necessitating the use of two fixtures for the bobbins, doubling on stock, all adds up to the price.

Let's reiterate:

* Dimarzio uses two identical bobbins, with identical polepieces, no retainer bar, no spacer bar, cheaper baseplate. This makes for a logistical path of seven parts (polepiece, bobbin, wire, magnet conductor lead, retaining screw, baseplate)
* Seymour Duncan uses two different bobbins, two different types of polepieces, retainer bar, spacer bar, better/more expensive baseplate. This makes for a logistical path of eleven parts ( (polepiece 1, bobbin 1, polepiece 2, bobbin 2, retainer bar, spacer bar, wire, conductor lead, retaining screw, baseplate)

How the heck do you come up with the idea that SD went the cheap route?!

 

[orpheo]

Re: Allen pole screws -double rows - why isn't every pup like that - so symmetric pre

Hi
I was looking high and low picking my last set of pickups.
And very different what version retailers keep in stock, bobbin color and pole screws.

DiMarzio at least suggest you can pick any combination ordering - if you want the allen pole screws as one, black or metal.

True: DMZ has a wider range of options you can choose from, when ordering. However, just because you can't seem to choose that much from Seymour Duncan doesn't mean that the options aren't there. It just means that, unfortunately, you have to order a pickup with the looks you desire via a retailer, store, dealer instead of directly from SD. Why this is, I do not know. That being said, you simply can choose: gold, chrome/nickel, black; hex or fillister. Even satin black. Coil colors can be chosen as well.

But some pickups like PAF - I only saw regular screws, and then just big blank flat metal surface on other row pole pieces,

You are right. But let's inject some proper terminology, ok? The regular flathead screws are called fillister screws and the 'blank flat metal surface on the other row pole pieces' is called 'slug polepieces'. And yup, that's indeed the standard to-go option for PAF style pickups and many derivatives. I'll get more into that later.

And some type pickup have only one row screws, why is that?

Does type of pole screw affect specs of pickup, or?
Does the PAF need more metal to sound right?

The part I highlighted in bold: YES. Absolutely. A pickup that's based on a PAF needs more metal in one bobbin to get that tonal PAF flavor, but I'll get more into that later.

I just like the double row allen type, looking symmetric and nice. And you can emphasize a bit towards middle between pickups if you like, so flexible too. Instead of turning pickup 180 degrees, just up pole screws.

Double row Allen type is a misnomer because there are, actually, more than one type of 'allen' screw in guitar pickups. To my count, at least four. Seymour Duncan's hex pole piece is not the same as Dimarzio, and they're both different from Bareknuckle and Lundgren. More on that later.

Did anybody order custom like from DiMarzio, can even the PAF 36th anniversary have double allen screws?

Yes, I tried to for my work but it's not possible because using two rows of hex polepieces would severely alter the tone of the pickup, making it no more a 36Th Anniversary.

Thanks.

You're welcome.

Now, my low-down about those polepieces as well as a word about the PAF.

PAF and P.A.F.

One term is not the same as the other. PAF is a Trademark by Dimarzio, the other is what we (shoulduse to denote the original humbucker made by Gibson in the 1950ies. Dimarzio can slap that term, PAF, on every humbucker they feel could use that term but bares little to no resemblance to the original P.A.F.: patent applied for-humbucker. The original had a certain set of specs and deviate from that recipe and voila; no more p.a.f. The rough, basic specs were nickel-silver baseplate and cover, 42 awg wire plain enamel insulation, wound between 7.5 and 8.5K with a margin of error of approximately 0.5K, 1 row of fillister screw polepieces, 1 row of slug polepieces, maple spacer bar, retainer bar, alnico magnet (the jury is still out on the exact type but for sure alnico: likely Alnico III and V for the majority, IV should be regarded as an oddball magnet, same goes for II but that's here nor there right now).

Take Dimarzio's PAF7: fiberboard baseplate and a ceramic magnet. Say what?! That's NOT a P.A.F. But typing all those periods is annoying so most just omit those but you have to differentiate between a PAF and a P.A.F., helas.

OK.

Polepieces

You have the polepieces that can be altered in height but also that cannot be altered. The movable polepieces are: fillister screw, hex screw, allen bolt, allen cap bolt. The unmovables are things like the slugs, the square inserts in Parallel axis pickups, bars and rails etc.

Why? Because they each do different things to the final tonal result because they alter the inductance and magnetic permeability. Simply put: a LOT of iron will cause the inductance of the coil to rise. Higher inductance results in loss of highs, generally speaking but also a higher output.

The pickup designer has a certain tone in mind and by playing a balancing act of wire gauge and wire insulation , coil geometry, baseplate material, magnet type and strength and finally polepieces, he can design a pickup that sounds like what he wants it to sound like.

For example, and I'm sorry that I have to plagiarism myself:

For years, I felt the Air Norton was my 'to go' pickup. It is fat in the neck position, great for leads, but retains some clarity under high gain. It's got a lot of crunch in the bridge position: open, cutting, a bit clear but not bright and a chewy midrange for leads. Yeah, the Air Norton was my 'to go' pickup. It was just a bit boring, lacking in dynamics and was overall servicable but not great. I went on to other pickups I love but never one that kept me as engaged as the Norton.

Then I took it upon me to see what I could do with Duncan parts to get to the air norton's territory. Let's break it down.

Magnet
The AN has an alnico V magnet; I believe the 'air' technology of the air norton is there to emulate an alnico II with an A5 magnet and since I can't replicate that part I have to work around that. I'd say, use an A2 (the air technology also gives for a weaker string pull) and get shorter polepieces to lower the inductance. The weaker magnet would also allow for a lower string pull for added sustain and harmonics.

Coils
The AN has two asymmetrically wound coils, clocking in at 12.6K. I can use a Custom coil (7K) plus a screaming demon coil (5K) but I don't have that yet. I would also rather not use coils that are so severely mismatched for this round. I have used a Demon coil plus an SH6N and that yielded great results but for now, I'd stick to what I feel comfortable with. Making a hybrid isn't difficult perse, it's just a lot of work. So, I opted for a Custom coil plus a Pegasus. I now have a bit more copper on the coils than an AN but we'll see how far we can go.

Polepieces
The AN uses regular fillister head screws and slugs. Slugs, fine. No biggy there. The screws, that's a bit of a pickle. I have an Alnico II to get into the air-bucked A5 territory but I have a hunch that this still might induce too much compared to the airbucked A5. Also, an Alnico II is notorious for giving you a squishy midrange and attenuated highs and spongy lows. The Norton does not have that; not really, anyway. So... Short poles it is! Lower inductance in that particular coil (custom coil, lookin' at you, just to even out the inductances between the coils even more, if that makes sense?) so the pick attack is super-accute in the final tonal product, just like the Norton.

Tone and Final Verdict

What the actual.... This pickup is so, so, so bonkers I can't wrap my head around it. It's been such a long time since I've been surprised.

Did I succeed in my goal of making an Air Norton with Duncan parts? No.
I got a pickup that has the basic idea of the Air Norton, in it's rear view mirror. It's got much more grind than the AN, a LOT more power (oddly enough, despite having a weaker magnet and only being 0,75KOHms hotter: see? DCR doesn't tell the full picture!) but it's not like the buzzsaw-cut'n'grind of the SH6 for example. The rhythm tone is tight, aggressive even slightly percussive but never harsh: the top end cuts but never pierces, the midrange is huge (and then consider that I mid-scooped my amp, simply because I forgot to dial in a neutral tone at that moment: even then, the midrange was huge!) and the lows are so, so tight but not boomy.

If I were to make a tonal curve on a scale of 0 to 10 it'd be like this:

lows: 6
lower mids: 6
mid range: 7
upper mids: 8
highs: 8

For example, I'd value a JB like this:

lows: 5
lower mids: 6
mid range: 8
upper mids: 9
highs: 8

This custom/peg hybrid is approximately as hot as a JB but so much more aggressive and dynamically rich but without that odd upper mid spike of the JB which makes the JB so annoying and makes the JB only work in Tele's (imho ). It's not as nasal or honky as a Perpetual burn, it's more open and 'forward' than that (compare it to the mid shift on those old Boogie Mark amps, where you can place the midrange 'forwards' or 'backwards'). But it does have a vocal quality so leads, solo's jump out like crazy.

I don't know, guys, but this pickup feels like a winner to me. The Pegasus itself is too percussive, tight and slightly nasal to my taste. The custom Alnico II (custom custom) is too spongy for my taste, but this combination works immensely well. However, I have to admit, I haven't tried this in the neck positino because I matched it with a Pearly Gates-N/59N Alnico II hybrid, which is by itself an amazing pickup (glassy and clear but with a boldness and richness to the tone that works very well with the tonepot to fatten it up for thick, fat leads or clean, warm but clear and open chords with low gain).

Yeah it's a long story but this might give you some insights in how a real, professional pickup designer goes about his work and why polepieces matter.

 

[Larioso]

Re: Allen pole screws -double rows - why isn't every pup like that - so symmetric pre

@orpheo: wow, that an educations post, thanks, and correcting terminology.

Still wonder a bit - slug metal, if drilled and threaded with a screw - still very different?
If length screw is long so it never leave more air in metal part.
And other result if it starts to add air in the slug.

I always felt the LP is too boomy in neck, and a little bit influenced that swapping so stock pickups got pole screws toward middle instead.
And other tricks are - pickup down, and pole pieces up.

So felt why aren't all pickups doing double rows screws - to alter more things without swapping pickups.

And what we forget most of the time - the coil is a mixer, kind of, that every string make their contribution if 2 or more strings sounding.

As I read in an article, the whole idea to create different characteristics apart from magnet and windings - it that assymetric windings in each coil - and this create a boost or not due to this. They don't cancel perfectly, so instead induce boost in certain range.

So intriguing subject for sure.

 

[orpheo]

Re: Allen pole screws -double rows - why isn't every pup like that - so symmetric pre

@orpheo: wow, that an educations post, thanks, and correcting terminology.

Still wonder a bit - slug metal, if drilled and threaded with a screw - still very different?

if you drill and tread a slug and insert a screw, you will surely get something different. What, I cannot say since I haven't ever tried it and have no desire to do so But you will get more metal in the pickup and more metal = higher inductance = more output/loss of high end, generally speaking.

If length screw is long so it never leave more air in metal part.

it's not about air, it's all about more metal IN the coil and coupling that metal to the magnet.

And other result if it starts to add air in the slug.

See above. it's about the metal you put in that screw which you couple to the magnet that makes a difference. not 'just' air or 'just' metal.

I always felt the LP is too boomy in neck, and a little bit influenced that swapping so stock pickups got pole screws toward middle instead.
And other tricks are - pickup down, and pole pieces up.

A LP in the neck shouldn't be boomy but Gibson sucks at building guitars for the last few decades. The originals weren't boomy, at all. But by using really heavy and dense mahogany for the bodies and necks and using pickups that aren't really great, people get the impression that Les Paul's sound boomy and overly mushy in the neck and are surprised when they find that PRS'es and Nik Huber's guitars aren't boomy in the neck position, at all, even though they're close to LP's or even copies! A Nik Huber Orca is for all intents and purposes, a Les Paul. Same dimensions, same scale but he uses better woods and his neck pickups aren't boomy. Frankly, neither are the LP's that I make.

So felt why aren't all pickups doing double rows screws - to alter more things without swapping pickups.

That's a matter of tradition as well as, as I said before, designer's prerogative.

And what we forget most of the time - the coil is a mixer, kind of, that every string make their contribution if 2 or more strings sounding.

What do you mean by a mixer? A coil is just that; a coil. With a magnet, a voltage is induced and that gets routed to your guitar. And yes, eventually all strings make a contribution but I don't understand what you're trying to say here

As I read in an article, the whole idea to create different characteristics apart from magnet and windings - it that assymetric windings in each coil - and this create a boost or not due to this. They don't cancel perfectly, so instead induce boost in certain range.

So intriguing subject for sure.

You don't actually boost something but rather cancel out less when you have asymmetrical coils. That's why I prefer hybridized humbuckers (search for that on the SD blog if you aren't versed in that term) because those pickups feel and sound more alive.

I'm still taken aback by the statement that LP's sound boomy. Try a Jazz Neck in a LP, or a 59n alnico IV and boominess is gone. Thing is, it's not cheap to get an alnico IV and fine-tuning pickups or actually making pickups that don't emphasize the low end in the neck position of a LP is a fairly costly process. Gibson and Epiphone are trying to make money, not make great, great sounding guitars.

Check this clip:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifJGMVrlXls

does that neck pickup sound boomy? No. it's fat and full, true, but it also has a jangle, cleanliness to it that makes cut through. It's almost not fair anymore but you have to understand, when Gibson made the LP, it was to compete with a tele and old LP's truly have that twang and clank of a tele, especially with the earlier p90's in them but also with the humbuckers. Why would they ever create something that would be tonally far off of the tele-track, if it had to compete with a tele? Only later on, starting in the late 60ies early 70ies do we start to see LP's that sound thick, almost unusable fatness, and way too much brightness on the bridge position.

 

[Larioso]

Re: Allen pole screws -double rows - why isn't every pup like that - so symmetric pre

Pickup coil as a mixer - I only mean pickup is not a 1 trick pony, it's a 6 trick pony - making the work of all strings together forming a resultant signal. How much metal in each string position will matter. AT least pole screws on Gibson pickups have really long screws, so raising pole a little does not remove metal from pickup magnet.

Interesting about boomyness - I know people praise the original 59 for having properly dried wood and such. I see quite a few ads on buy/sell-forums that ask for non-chambered LP's etc.

I noticed massive difference switching the vintage Kluson tuners to Schaller keystone, and tapering holes to really be pressfit tuner in hole, rahter than have an 1/4" axis going through a 3/8" hole and all force is in the basement of tuner and press bushing on top.

So really happy with my LP right now - gotten rid of the Burstbuckers and have DiMarzios in there. Now it delivers something worth amplifying!

Why do they even ship any Gibson with those tuners, one wonders. They don't care about attention to detail like many smaller manufacturers do. I heard a lot of praise for PRS and MusicMan over this. Probably Tom Anderson and these guys too.

One year Gibson suddenly clamp on this silly automatic tuner package, which most people remove the first thing. Total mass in headstock matters a lot for how neck and head resonate in instrument. I noticed swapping Grover to Schaller on a 335. Holes in headstock on 335 were 10.4mm, and Grover and Schaller have a base that is 9.8mm - what are they thinking. Mass makes a difference, how they are mounted becoming full part of instrument matters. So I used copper sheet metal to wind around to make a press fit - really nice improvement in tone and resonance of guitar. Grover weigh led in comparison.

Are Gibson even listening to the guitars they ship, one wonders again.
- let's see, a new year
- let's make it different from last year

Seems there is nothing of
- let's make it better than last years edition
- we can save money in production doing this cheaper

I've heard people leave Gibson as delivered and replace cables inside, from the think crap they have as standard. Said to make a difference. A little better here, and little better there - and it all sums up to making a greater sounding guitar.

So now letting off some stream I feel better.

 

[beaubrummels]

Re: Allen pole screws -double rows - why isn't every pup like that - so symmetric pre

Something I didn’t see mentioned: a former SD employee once pointed out on here that Allen heads vs flat head screws direct the magnetic field above the pickup differently, sensing the string differently, something that must have been known by Seth Lover during development as the patent paperwork I read showed that the flat head screws should be oriented in a V pattern, e.g. \ / \ / \ /

What I can say from experience is I once put Allen screws into a 59 and the difference of alloy coupled with the difference in head made it a very very different pickup. More than a tweak. It was a different pickup. I can’t say what percentage of difference was caused by alloy vs head shape, however. (I might expect the metal had a bigger influence, but the difference was huge, much more than I would have expected in any case)