Allen pole screws -double rows - why isn't every pup like that - so symmetric pretty?

[Mincer]

Re: Allen pole screws -double rows - why isn't every pup like that - so symmetric pre

So there are both 'sonic' and 'tradition' reasons why a pickup looks the way it does. Both of these explain why triangular or hexagonal or oval pickups never took off. Probably sonic reasons, but also tradition reasons- a guitar these days is seen as 'limited' if it comes with some wacky non-replaceable pickups. I am pretty sure Seth & Seymour had a good vision when they took a formula and tweaked it to the current, most popular screws n' slugs format. My guess is that a lot of other things have been (and continue to be) tried out. But we always have to consider both of reasons. Other pickups throw out 'tradition' to go for a sound (like double blades)....they aren't as popular.

 

[Larioso]

Re: Allen pole screws -double rows - why isn't every pup like that - so symmetric pre

Something I didn’t see mentioned: a former SD employee once pointed out on here that Allen heads vs flat head screws direct the magnetic field above the pickup differently, sensing the string differently, something that must have been known by Seth Lover during development as the patent paperwork I read showed that the flat head screws should be oriented in a V pattern, e.g. \ / \ / \ /

What I can say from experience is I once put Allen screws into a 59 and the difference of alloy coupled with the difference in head made it a very very different pickup. More than a tweak. It was a different pickup. I can’t say what percentage of difference was caused by alloy vs head shape, however. (I might expect the metal had a bigger influence, but the difference was huge, much more than I would have expected in any case)

Interesting read.

What about hex bolt kind of design - would not lack metal on top?
It would have more metal than flat head screws, where there is a dip for screw driver.
These navel hex allen thingies will have less metal closest to string.

 

[PicoRiveraTele]

Re: Allen pole screws -double rows - why isn't every pup like that - so symmetric pre

It's been documented in a few places that the reason the PAF has any screws at all is because the Gibson marketing department wanted them to be more like P-90s. The original patent showed a pickup with twelve slugs and a solid cover, more like a Firebird pickup. I don't think there was particular thought given to how one or the other "sensed the strings", only that it worked well enough and looked good.

 

[PicoRiveraTele]

Re: Allen pole screws -double rows - why isn't every pup like that - so symmetric pre

I'm sorry man but this is absolute nonsense, hogwash to the Nth degree.

Let's take a look: the Dimarzio EVO uses 43awg wire as well as 44 awg, so the two coils have two different DC readings. But no one can in his right mind say that the EVO has a singlecoil-ish tone?! Come on. Give me a break.

Are you saying the different DC resistance proves that the two coils must have different output? You don't think perhaps it matters more whether the inductances are the same?

You don't make one coil 'louder' with different polepiees, you change the inductance of that coil in order to tweak the resonance peak of that coil, which in turn alters the tone you get from that coil, which in turn is used to create a specific sound the designer has in mind, when both coils are used.

You can't change the resonant peak of one coil by itself because they two coils form a single resonant circuit. To get distinct peaks from the two coils based on their own inductances, you would have to put an active buffer between the coils.

If one coil has smaller pole pieces that the other, than the reluctance path between the coil and strings becomes greater, and the output voltage is reduced. It's not unlike lowering the pickup away from the strings, less magnetism between strings and coil, means less voltage.

 

[PicoRiveraTele]

Re: Allen pole screws -double rows - why isn't every pup like that - so symmetric pre

:scratchch

*Ceramic magnets were cheaper than alnico's.
*SD used and always has used and still uses nickel silver baseplates: much more expensive than brass baseplates.

*the JB was wound with 44 awg wire, which was not an industry standard wire in the 70ies; the Super Distortion was wound with 43 awg, which WAS an industry standard since Fender used that wire on their singlecoils since the 50ies.

I for one do think that DMZ tried to make a production flow as easy and affordable as possible. Why I come to this conclusion? Simple. I tore apart half a dozen 70ies JB's and compared them to half a dozen SuperDistortions and the differences are very clear, in terms of construction and quality.

* The bobbins of Seymour Duncan were of much better quality, they didn't tend to crack around the polepieces.
* the SuperDistortion didn't use a retainer bar nor the maple spacer bar like Seymour Duncan. Only a brass baseplate WITHOUT HOLES for the polepieces, unlike Seymour Duncan.
* The baseplate's screw holes would wear out on the Dimarzio because brass is softer than nickel silver.
* Using a retainer bar + spacer is two extra parts, plus using two different coils (slug coil + screw coil), necessitating the use of two fixtures for the bobbins, doubling on stock, all adds up to the price.

Let's reiterate:

* Dimarzio uses two identical bobbins, with identical polepieces, no retainer bar, no spacer bar, cheaper baseplate. This makes for a logistical path of seven parts (polepiece, bobbin, wire, magnet conductor lead, retaining screw, baseplate)
* Seymour Duncan uses two different bobbins, two different types of polepieces, retainer bar, spacer bar, better/more expensive baseplate. This makes for a logistical path of eleven parts ( (polepiece 1, bobbin 1, polepiece 2, bobbin 2, retainer bar, spacer bar, wire, conductor lead, retaining screw, baseplate)

How the heck do you come up with the idea that SD went the cheap route?!

If you're using the same parts for many of the pickups, the bulk costs and machining costs are going to be lower.

the JB was NOT an overwound PAF by any means. It was intended as a hot noiseless Tele pickup (I spoke with Seymour about this subject, at length, because I did not understand what the pickup was intended to achieve).

The JB was born from an rewound humbucker from a Flying V. It's a PAF footprint humbucker with a high inductance, and little more.

 

[orpheo]

Re: Allen pole screws -double rows - why isn't every pup like that - so symmetric pre

I give up. I'm not going to type the same story twice.

I'm out. Got better things to do than try and correct erroneous notions.

See you all in a month.

 

[beaubrummels]

Re: Allen pole screws -double rows - why isn't every pup like that - so symmetric pre

Interesting read.

What about hex bolt kind of design - would not lack metal on top?
It would have more metal than flat head screws, where there is a dip for screw driver.
These navel hex allen thingies will have less metal closest to string.

It’s not the amount of metal. It’s the shape of the metal. A round head with a slot directs the magnetic field differently than the concave hex head. At least that’s what I learned from the posts on here. I can’t speak to the lab experiments where this was determined. I’m taking it on authority of professionals from the company that posted here previously.

 

[PicoRiveraTele]

Re: Allen pole screws -double rows - why isn't every pup like that - so symmetric pre

I give up. I'm not going to type the same story twice.

Most of your story wasn't relevant. I never said Seymour Duncan cheeped out across the board, just in relation to the JB compared to a Super Distortion. At the very least it can be said that the Super Distortion had features that were unique unto itself, while the JB was, literally, a rewound Explorer pickup. To talk about how it was wound with a particular Telecaster in mind, that's neither here nor there.

 

[Chistopher]

Re: Allen pole screws -double rows - why isn't every pup like that - so symmetric pre

Most of your story wasn't relevant. I never said Seymour Duncan cheeped out across the board, just in relation to the JB compared to a Super Distortion. At the very least it can be said that the Super Distortion had features that were unique unto itself, while the JB was, literally, a rewound Explorer pickup. To talk about how it was wound with a particular Telecaster in mind, that's neither here nor there.

False on all accounts, mate. All of which have been explained above except this "rewound Explorer pickup" nonsense. While the rest of the pickup may have been the same, the wire on the JB was completely new, and if I remember correctly came from some spare wire he found in an automotive shop, as the JB was designed pretty spontaneously.

 

[80's_Metal]

Re: Allen pole screws -double rows - why isn't every pup like that - so symmetric pre

I just learned so much from this thread!