Alnico III vs IV?
- Thread starter mountain2012
- Start date
LtKojak
New member
Re: Alnico III vs IV?
A9 has all the defects of a ceramic and none of the alnico virtues, making'em more obvious and louder, costing ten times as much.
If somebody by any chance would like the tone produced by an A9, should look at neodymium mags, costing the same or even less than ceramics.
YMMV.
HTH,
IME, it'll make your teeth hurt. Ouch!
A9 has all the defects of a ceramic and none of the alnico virtues, making'em more obvious and louder, costing ten times as much.
If somebody by any chance would like the tone produced by an A9, should look at neodymium mags, costing the same or even less than ceramics.
YMMV.
HTH,
Last edited:
LtKojak
New member
Re: Alnico III vs IV?
And that's just a couple of examples from the top of my head!
Confused yet?
There's an answer for both questions... unfortunately, one's gotta know Quantum Physics at the highest level to understand the why of magnetism, and also have a degree in applied metalurgics to even start to grasp the effect of the different alloys in Alnico grading. Then they're different standards for the different countries... What Germany calls A2 must adhere to the DIN standards, which are NOT the same as the American Standards for A2... nor the British, for that matter.
And that's just a couple of examples from the top of my head!
Confused yet?
Re: Alnico III vs IV?
And then add in the fact that the way a magnet alters tone will depend on the wind.......its like a reactive change based on the other aspects of the pickup specs. Every single mag change I've ever done has done no more than tweak the pickup's inherent tonal footprint.
So even if you have a solid definition of the way the magnetic field changes, it becomes utterly irrelevant once you get in into a real-world in-a-pickup scenario.
But this is a conversation that has gone on many times in this forum even in the last 12 months
And then add in the fact that the way a magnet alters tone will depend on the wind.......its like a reactive change based on the other aspects of the pickup specs. Every single mag change I've ever done has done no more than tweak the pickup's inherent tonal footprint.
So even if you have a solid definition of the way the magnetic field changes, it becomes utterly irrelevant once you get in into a real-world in-a-pickup scenario.
But this is a conversation that has gone on many times in this forum even in the last 12 months
Edgecrusher
New member
Re: Alnico III vs IV?
And pray tell just who in this industry has those degrees? MJ is a wonderful lady whose advice on magnets i would take over any professor but iam also pretty sure she doesnt have a degree in applied metalurgics nor quantum physics. I would hazard a guess that neither does Falbo nor anyone else who is or was employed by SD.
Now are you really trying to imply that no one at SD understands magnets and how they work in pickups?
There's an answer for both questions... unfortunately, one's gotta know Quantum Physics at the highest level to understand the why of magnetism, and also have a degree in applied metalurgics to even start to grasp the effect of the different alloys in Alnico grading. Then they're different standards for the different countries... What Germany calls A2 must adhere to the DIN standards, which are NOT the same as the American Standards for A2... nor the British, for that matter.
And that's just a couple of examples from the top of my head!
Confused yet?
And pray tell just who in this industry has those degrees? MJ is a wonderful lady whose advice on magnets i would take over any professor but iam also pretty sure she doesnt have a degree in applied metalurgics nor quantum physics. I would hazard a guess that neither does Falbo nor anyone else who is or was employed by SD.
Now are you really trying to imply that no one at SD understands magnets and how they work in pickups?
DreX
New member
Re: Alnico III vs IV?
I'm not necessarily asking the "why?". For one thing, I think more could be learned through more deliberate trial and error, the effort just hasn't gone into comprehensive data collection. I recorded those sound clips a few weeks ago, even something as simple as that is hard to come by. Taking things further, comparisons could be made with a test rig, test against various winds and do spectrum analysis to see the precise differences, to say that when you pair this alloy with that wind, it results in zig and zag. I'm not saying anyone here has the time or resources to do this, just that it stands as something that's not especially difficult to do that has yet to be done.
I'm not necessarily asking the "why?". For one thing, I think more could be learned through more deliberate trial and error, the effort just hasn't gone into comprehensive data collection. I recorded those sound clips a few weeks ago, even something as simple as that is hard to come by. Taking things further, comparisons could be made with a test rig, test against various winds and do spectrum analysis to see the precise differences, to say that when you pair this alloy with that wind, it results in zig and zag. I'm not saying anyone here has the time or resources to do this, just that it stands as something that's not especially difficult to do that has yet to be done.
DreX
New member
Re: Alnico III vs IV?
If magnets were cars, then talented pickup winders are more like really good drivers who know how to carve up the track, but they're not necessarily the inventor of the car, or even a mechanic.
If magnets were cars, then talented pickup winders are more like really good drivers who know how to carve up the track, but they're not necessarily the inventor of the car, or even a mechanic.
LtKojak
New member
Re: Alnico III vs IV?
Only in the interpretation of a very contorted and sick mind.
Last edited:
Edgecrusher
New member
Re: Alnico III vs IV?
Bad analogy is bad. I cant speak for all winders but those I know of more than a few that understand perfectly well the relationship between mag type, charge level and how they interact with a wind. That would place them firmly in the area of a car builder.
Bad analogy is bad. I cant speak for all winders but those I know of more than a few that understand perfectly well the relationship between mag type, charge level and how they interact with a wind. That would place them firmly in the area of a car builder.
LtKojak
New member
Re: Alnico III vs IV?
You can use all the science and technology you want, but, at the end, it all goes into the garbage can when what it counts is Johnny Guitarplayer "Likes" or "Not Likes". Most of the time the judgement occurs with the prospective buyer not even being in the same room with the p'up! Or, they choose "A" over "B" just because it "looks better". LOL!
/Rant
I thought you were?
There is software that models a p'up in a harness, with something like fifty-something parameters to play with. However, there are several things that can simply not be modeled, the most important is the effect of eddy currents, something you can measure from the real thing, but can't be predicted. Also, the dielectric properties of the wire itself, are so fluctuating that also can't really be predicted from some fixed parameters to add to a equation. Plus, the final judgement of certain p'up's "design" or "voicing" is completely subjective and must be taken IN CONTEXT with musical statements, which per se are subjective as well.
You can use all the science and technology you want, but, at the end, it all goes into the garbage can when what it counts is Johnny Guitarplayer "Likes" or "Not Likes". Most of the time the judgement occurs with the prospective buyer not even being in the same room with the p'up! Or, they choose "A" over "B" just because it "looks better". LOL!
/Rant
Last edited:
DreX
New member
Re: Alnico III vs IV?
I think it's a perfect analogy, and you're not qualified to know if someone is telling you truth about how things work if you yourself don't know the truth either. You might simply be impressed by their apparent confidence. Again, using a thing and understanding a thing, is not the same.
I think it's a perfect analogy, and you're not qualified to know if someone is telling you truth about how things work if you yourself don't know the truth either. You might simply be impressed by their apparent confidence. Again, using a thing and understanding a thing, is not the same.
DreX
New member
Re: Alnico III vs IV?
If there are secrets to the tone/magnet equation that can only be understood with more discoveries in relation to quantum physics, then I can at least wish for better documentation of the relationship between magnets and tone, which properties or alloys result in what outcome when paired with a given wind. I've set out to do some of this myself, but as with everyone else, my time is finite.
In all the places you say "can't", I say "eventually".
If there are secrets to the tone/magnet equation that can only be understood with more discoveries in relation to quantum physics, then I can at least wish for better documentation of the relationship between magnets and tone, which properties or alloys result in what outcome when paired with a given wind. I've set out to do some of this myself, but as with everyone else, my time is finite.
In all the places you say "can't", I say "eventually".
Last edited:
LtKojak
New member
Re: Alnico III vs IV?
In the meantime, mark my trademarked words: "Not everything that can be measured matters, and not everything that matters can be measured"™
I really hope to be around if this happens at all, DreX.
In the meantime, mark my trademarked words: "Not everything that can be measured matters, and not everything that matters can be measured"™
GilmourD
Burritotoneologist
Re: Alnico III vs IV?
Agreed. How often have we seen two tones broken down scientifically to the Nth degree and on every scope and graph they look identical but everybody agrees there's something different?In the meantime, mark my trademarked words: "Not everything that can be measured matters, and not everything that matters can be measured"™
Edgecrusher
New member
Re: Alnico III vs IV?
Yes we know you "think" lots of things... just because you "think" its perfect doesnt make it so.
How do you know what qualifications I hold? How do you know what I actually know? Confidence doesnt impress me, Its not hard to disseminate when someone is speaking from a position of information or a position of knowledge.
The people I made inference too earlier are very knowledgeable. The sort of people that when you are around its better to just shut up and listen.
Yes we know you "think" lots of things... just because you "think" its perfect doesnt make it so.
How do you know what qualifications I hold? How do you know what I actually know? Confidence doesnt impress me, Its not hard to disseminate when someone is speaking from a position of information or a position of knowledge.
The people I made inference too earlier are very knowledgeable. The sort of people that when you are around its better to just shut up and listen.
DreX
New member
Re: Alnico III vs IV?
Expert wine tasters have been fooled into thinking a single wine was two different wines by simply changing the label on the bottle.
Expert wine tasters have been fooled into thinking a single wine was two different wines by simply changing the label on the bottle.
DreX
New member
Re: Alnico III vs IV?
That's a perspective of convenience. Suppose we didn't know why more winds of coil made a pickup louder, while also producing less treble specifically. We do know now, but suppose it was just a mystery of nature. We'd still make the pickups we want through trial and error alone, but we also wouldn't want to celebrate our ignorance with clever sayings.
I really hope to be around if this happens at all, DreX.
In the meantime, mark my trademarked words: "Not everything that can be measured matters, and not everything that matters can be measured"™
That's a perspective of convenience. Suppose we didn't know why more winds of coil made a pickup louder, while also producing less treble specifically. We do know now, but suppose it was just a mystery of nature. We'd still make the pickups we want through trial and error alone, but we also wouldn't want to celebrate our ignorance with clever sayings.
