alright rackmount guys, educate me on power amps

[FretFire]

Re: alright rackmount guys, educate me on power amps

Doesn't sound to me like drew_half_empty needs a new amp, it sounds like he needs to check out an ear specialist to find out how why his ears aren't perceiving volume the way normal people do.

15w tube is freakin' loud cranked. 100w tube is insane opened up all the way as it is (I thought I was going to die from that force). You gotta be asking yourself why in God's name would you need anything more than that. Your next door neighbors, bandmates and sound guys loathe you I'm sure :laugh2:

Somehow I forsee a 200w tube Marshall Major in your future drew_half_empty

Or perhaps a Marshall Mode Four or Fender MH?

 

[drew_half_empty]

Re: alright rackmount guys, educate me on power amps

jeez guys, by now you should know that i hate marshall

and I'm not a metal kid, my playing/tone is best described as classic but on some serious roids, just really really really ballsy rockabilly

theres nothing wrong with being loud, my drummer plays loud as hell & i'm not about to tell him to stop, it's rock & roll man, I'm all about the live show, when i was in my last band, a kid broke his leg in one of our pits, and after that became one of our biggest supporters. Another time everyone in the pit just tripped or fell down or something & were still moshing on the floor, we hit people like a sledgehammer & they responded accordingly, and i loved it, i still do. Wow i sound arrogant, oh well.

Bottom line - me & the kids in my scene like to hear & play loud music, the band that's seen as having 'the perfect volume' has 2 guitarists, both playing randall 200 watt heads maxed out through jcm800 cabs, and when they kick on the distortion, well, rat pedals have a pretty decent volume boost. The bassist plays through an 8x10 with i think a 300 watt head, and the drummer keeps up with them, even when he hits the bells you can hear them. I'm not gonna tell my drummer to play quiter cuz he's good at that volume, it's not my job, as the frontman, to turn everyone else down, it's my job to get them as into it as possible, and if it takes some killer wattage, well, so be it, it'll only improve the energy of our live show. We have no soundmen, no micing, just a dim lighted smokey eagles lodge with a 6" platform to set our crap on. If i can mic then i won't use the PA, but I'm in the underground scene & we deal with what we got, I'm not complaining, just sort of a FYI.

so, neighbors - hate me, but they're crackheads & illegal aliens anyways
sound guys - never dealt with em
bandmates - as of now they have no problems keeping up, but they'd be happier if they did

it's rock & roll, not rocket science

 

[B2D]

Re: alright rackmount guys, educate me on power amps

I'm really curious by this point...

YO DREW next time you guys have band practice... see if you can get ahold of a small SPL meter like THIS ONE. While you're playing, look at it and tell us what it reads. I'm just insanely curious. Something doesn't quite add up in this situation... I'm staring to believe that there's something unique to Drew's situation that's altering his perception of sound and neither of us know it yet.

Granted, SS amps don't handle power in the same way that tube amps do but I've gigged in a LOT of different types of situations with a LOT of different types of amps and I have yet to see anyone max out a 300W guitar amplifier of ANY type on its own.

 

[joelap]

Re: alright rackmount guys, educate me on power amps

Guy's... time out. I can shed some light onto Drew's situation:

I am the lead guitarist / second vocals in my band. My bassist has an Acoustic 140, Fender Bassman 300, a Hartke 410, and 2 Peavey 215's loaded with Carvin speakers. He runs ALL of them at shows. I only have an AVT50 head and cab. My rhythm guitarist has a crate head that had it's guts ripped out and put some old line 6 electronics in by a guy in another local band around here. That amp is about 100 watts solid state. My bassist has about 450 watts Solid state.

I have 50 watts solid state. I am the lead guitarist.

This is the situation when we practice or play live. Bass is the loudest instrument, then comes the vocals, then drums, then rythm guitar, and coming in last is me at lead guitar. I have to dime my amp's volume, and make it sound ****ty as hell. Now, my bassist wont turn down. He just wont do it for whatever reason. Despite my earnest attempts to ask him to lower the volume (even after ruining 2 live recordings which were supposed to be demo's because you couldn't hear the guitar, and crappy distorted bass sounds like ass), the same problem is there.

Unfortunately, I can't afford to buy a new amp. I get no help from my parents as far as music gear goes. Whatever I want, I have to pay for. Also, the only job I have a chance of getting hired at starts mid march. Therefore, I'm STUCK in this situation. I can't afford a new amp, and I can get the bassist to lower his volume.

Guys: Imagine having to really listen to hear your own guitar solos. Imagine being the person who writes all the songs, and be the quietest person in the band, and to be able to do NOTHING ABOUT IT!

So Drew, here's my advice. GO OUT AND BUY A F*CKING 1000 WATT POWER AMP. IF YOU NEED TO BE LOUDER, FOR CHRISTS SAKE SAVE YOURSELF AND DO IT. DON'T END UP LIKE ME. I dont think your situation is quite as sh*tty as mine, but if it's similar, you have the money so do something about it. You are the frontman... make yourself heard, whether that means causing permanent hearing loss to those in the crowd.

 

[Chi3f]

Re: alright rackmount guys, educate me on power amps

joe your main problem is those avt amps have no real volume to them. i had an avt150h with 2 4-12 cabs with the volume maxed out and only then was it close to loud enough to keep up. My dsl100 with 1 2-12 cab at around half volume is louder then that avt was. they are extremely sad amps sound quality and ouput wise imo.

 

[FretFire]

Re: alright rackmount guys, educate me on power amps

I think that's bad advice personally. He won't only be causing hearing loss to the crowd, he'll be doing it to himself as well. If the drummer is the factor requiring the rest of the band to turn up, HE NEEDS TO CALM DOWN. There's very few times I can think of where playing live is concerned where it's better to turn 3 people up to match 1...

 

[joelap]

Re: alright rackmount guys, educate me on power amps

joe your main problem is those avt amps have no real volume to them. i had an avt150h with 2 4-12 cabs with the volume maxed out and only then was it close to loud enough to keep up. My dsl100 with 1 2-12 cab at around half volume is louder then that avt was. they are extremely sad amps sound quality and ouput wise imo.

I know. But like I said, I can't afford a new amp. For 2 years I've been the quietest guy in the band at lead guitar. If thats the situation Drew's in as well, I really feel for him.

 

[joelap]

Re: alright rackmount guys, educate me on power amps

I think that's bad advice personally.

That was a hyperbole. An exaggeration for the sake of emphasizing my point. Hence all the bold as well as capital letters.

 

[aleclee]

Re: alright rackmount guys, educate me on power amps

joe your main problem is those avt amps have no real volume to them.

Personally, I think Joe's main problem is that his bass player is a d!ck who won't turn down. Rather than getting new gear, get a new bass player. It's cheaper and much better in the long run.

 

[joelap]

Re: alright rackmount guys, educate me on power amps

Personally, I think Joe's main problem is that his bass player is a d!ck who won't turn down. Rather than getting new gear, get a new bass player. It's cheaper and much better in the long run.

LOL thanks aleclee, which brings me to my advice part 2:

DONT GET IN BANDS WITH FRIENDS!

The bassist has been a friend for years. That opens up a whole new can of worms :smack: :laugh2:

However, he is really talented and locks in well with me and the dummer. Just LOUD

 

[aleclee]

Re: alright rackmount guys, educate me on power amps

LOL thanks aleclee, which brings me to my advice part 2:

DONT GET IN BANDS WITH FRIENDS!

The bassist has been a friend for years. That opens up a whole new can of worms :smack: :laugh2:

However, he is really talented and locks in well with me and the dummer. Just LOUD

Personally, I don't give a toss how talented a guy is if he won't turn down. Not only is he creating a health issue, he creates a situation where you're gonna be less successful gigging because the band is too friggin' loud and/or you can't hear the other parts. Also, if he's too pig-headed to turn down, don't be surprised when that lack of team spirit shows up in other areas.

I do appreciate the sensitivity of dealing with a "friend" but what kind of friend won't turn down for the good of the band?

 

[tone4days]

Re: alright rackmount guys, educate me on power amps

joelap,

want my 2 cents? i'd recommend quitting the band - seriously ... if they simply won't address the issue of manageable volume, it can be a deal breaker .. it doesnt sound like there is much fun being had by you if you are fighting a just, but unwinnable, fight ... let them see what they are missing without you ... i've seen bassists like that before ... they cannot be changed, so dont bang your head against the wall anymore ... let them be and move on to a more reasonable group of musicians ... if they want you back, give them your list of nonnegotiables .. they get one and only one more chance .. the bassist cranks up again, youre gone for good

i've been where you are and seen it all before .. if you had a 1000w amp that cut through the mix perfectly, they would just dork around over something else .. they just dont get it and never will

stop trying to pursue music with clowns and you'll remove frustration from your life

cheers
t4d

 

[Quencho092]

Re: alright rackmount guys, educate me on power amps

i think this whole loudness deal is out of hand....way out of hand. I've been to quite a few large shows down here in miami and fort lauderdale and the bands have played through a PA, but these are huge venues and amphitheaters.

In every smaller concert hall show, the bands simply use their half stacks and the volume is still ear splitting. I'd recommend getting a pair of molded ear filters if a peavey 5150 isn't enough for you.

I'm curious, take the SPL test like B2D asked, i want to see how bad this is getting....

 

[Quencho092]

Re: alright rackmount guys, educate me on power amps

well, it seems like we've concluded that you need some extreme wattage.

That carvin looks good, but what speakers did you have in mind? Yorkville Elites make for some badass 15'' cabinets. A good PA setup with speakers would include 2 Elite 15'', and another 2 12'' cabs with piezo horns.

Remember, PA speakers are not like guitar speakers wattage and volume wise. The Yorkville elites i use could easily handle over 500 watts each, and pump out insane volume accordingly. I run a QSC 2000 watt PA through them with no problem.

The total price for your PA escapades could amount to over 900 bucks.

What do you have against good ole marshalls? I have to admit their new stuff isn't as great as I would like, but nothing beats the cranked wall of sound produced by 2 marshall 4x12 being run by a 1959 SLP.

They say that some of these could have been rated at over 150 watts tube power, and IMO nothing beats that tone for that rock and roll thing you were talking about.

 

[Artie]

Re: alright rackmount guys, educate me on power amps

The bottom line is that a watt is a watt. There's no real difference between tube watts and SS watts.

I just want to touch on this one point. While thats true of home audio equipment, its not quite true of guitar amps, which are a special circumstance.

The thing is, both tube and SS amps are rated the same way - the maximum power before clipping. But you use a tube guitar amp well beyond clipping, and as the amp "clips", the output power rises exponentially. A 30 watt tube amp, (assuming an adequate power supply), can put out well above its rated power.

An SS amp, on the other hand, you'ld never want to clip. So, you need an adequate margin of safety. I don't think 10:1 is unreasonable. So a 100 watt SS amp might only be used, realistically, at 10 - 20 watts continuously.

Thats my 2-cents worth for this thread. :laugh2:

btw - In my little 8 x 10 home studio, I use a Crown D150A SS amp. Thats 150 watts, (75 per side), and I wouldn't want any less.

 

[That90'sGuy]

Re: alright rackmount guys, educate me on power amps

They say that some of these could have been rated at over 150 watts tube power, and IMO nothing beats that tone for that rock and roll thing you were talking about.

That's what I'm getting at. If Drew plays this "rockabilly" type stuff at insane volumes, a Marshall Major would be his best bet. It's marked as 200 all tube watts, but rest assured, the peak is probably around 250. Since the wattage is so high, it has high headroom. John Frusciante among other pros use them so I'm sure they are pretty clean amps.

Best of all, you see a lot of amps like the Major on sale for a steal of a price because of the fact that most people just can't use that type of power (there aren't even attenuators made to tame something that powerful). While I feel something is terribly wrong with your ears Drew, if you want that kind of power, with tube dynamics, definitely look into it.

 

[FretFire]

Re: alright rackmount guys, educate me on power amps

i've been where you are and seen it all before .. if you had a 1000w amp that cut through the mix perfectly, they would just dork around over something else .. they just dont get it and never will

Great point. Guys like that just don't care. In fact my guess, Drew, is that if you were to get some huge power amp to raise your volume level, your drummer might think "oh sweet he can turn up, I can play EVEN LOUDER!" and you'll be right back where you started. Well, except for the fact that you won't be able to hear a thing . Be careful what you do to your ears, just listen to the way EVH's tone evolved over the years due to his hearing. It gradually got brighter, and brighter, and brighter...

 

[skyydogg01]

Re: alright rackmount guys, educate me on power amps

DREW I HAVE YOUR SOLUTION ...

ok you are going to have 2 cabs right???

get a decent 200 watt solid state power amp, you are already getting a line out or something added to your bassman, right? line that out to your power amp. run your power amp at half (for headroom) into ONE cab.

Hook up your bassman speaker out to your other cab. Essentially giving you roughly 200 watts in a tube/solid state hybrid that'll blow the clothes off of the chicks. this will prevent you from having to buy a dummy load or bring your extra 1X12 with you.

 

[some_dude]

Re: alright rackmount guys, educate me on power amps

I was giving an example of how loud 100 watts of tube power are.

Decent fender twin trannies cost 80-90 bucks. premium replica trannies that sound as good as the originals from mercury magnetics cost around 140. A new tranny and speakers could help get more dB, which is what drew was asking for.

Hmmm. I never realized they were that cheap.....the only tranny I know the price on is a Dual Rectifier, and they go for about $300-350US. It's good to know that though....I plan on buying a Fender someday.

 

[some_dude]

Re: alright rackmount guys, educate me on power amps

Granted, SS amps don't handle power in the same way that tube amps do but I've gigged in a LOT of different types of situations with a LOT of different types of amps and I have yet to see anyone max out a 300W guitar amplifier of ANY type on its own.

The point is that with SS you don't want to max out the power......if a SS amp is clipping, it's not powerfull enough.