American Standard Strat Trem Issue

[Stratillac96]

Howdy,

New member here. I've been skimming free advice and info from the SD forum for over a year now so I figured I might as well join. Overall I've found most everyone here to be friendly, informative, and knowledgeable.

I have a '96 American Standard Stratocaster with which I've had tuning issues for years when using the trem. I'm personally not a fan of setting it up for floating, so I prefer for it to lay flat for down-bends only. However, any time I have tried to use the trem set flat, the G string ALWAYS returns sharp. It's been this way for so long I don't even remember it not being this way, in fact, and as a result I never use the trem. I've tried the following things in an attempt to solve the problem, to no effect:

- Adding graphite and/or nut lubricant to the nut slot,
- Asking my luthier to check/file the nut slots
- Asking my luthier to check for burrs on the saddles that may hang the string up
- Swapping out the saddles entirely for graph-tech saddles (I put the originals back on)
- lubricating bridge pivot points
- Adjusting the trem claw so the springs aren't pulling the bridge too tight against the body
- Lubricating and then eventually removing the string retainer on the headstock (no diff, so I put it back on)
- Locking tuners (again no difference, so the original tuning keys are back on)
- Adding/removing springs (returned to original setup using three)

The only other things I can think of that could be hang-up points for the string would be the trem block itself, where the strings come through before passing through the saddles, or perhaps the nut is not cut properly or is worn excessively. I play with what I'd call a 'medium' action, and I'm not trying to do Eddie Van Halen-type divebombs or anything like that. I use Ernie Ball 11-48 Power Slinkys on this guitar. I have the trem set so that once it lays flat against the body, I give the trem claw screws about another half-turn so the bridge doesn't pull up when bending strings.

Aside from the block and the nut itself, is there anything else I should try? Am I overlooking something? Any help or suggestions are greatly appreciated!

 

[Chickenwings]

Re: American Standard Strat Trem Issue

all trems whether strat or otherwise do this to a greater or lesser extent. The issue is at the nut.
A well cut bone, or tusq nut with either dry lubricant like graphite ot wet lube like some chap stick or nut sauce is pretty good, but it will still happen. Even on the best quality and best set up guitars. Friction is inevitable.

There is a solution tho, and it equally applies to decked or floating trems.

The thing is, you have to choose EITHER having the strings always returning to pitch when dive bombing OR having the string returning to pitch when you bend up.

Friction at the nut is an unavoidable fact of life. NO matter how what efforts you go to to eliminate friction, it will always be there to a small extent. You just need to choose your method of working with the small differentials in tension between the strings at either the headstock or the fretboard to manage the issue and have a more or less instantaneous method of rejigging the tuning while you play.

I prefer to have my strings return to pitch when i bend. This just means that you stretch the strings as you tune. When you tune a string, always give it either a firm tug or a 3 fret bend. If it goes flat, retune and re-bend. Keep repeating the process until the string stays in tune after being bent or pulled on. This will give you tuning stability. If you do not do the final stretch/bend and rechecking for tuning, then chances are the string will go out while you are playing.
Ok so that is pretty simple. What you have done is create a situation where the friction at the nut either allows equal tension at both ends of the string (best case perfect frictionless utopian world), or a very slight mismatch where the headstock end has a barely discernible difference where the string has less tension than the fingerboard end.
Now, when you divebomb, the string tension will change and you will end up where that tension differential is gone and your string goes sharp. This is inevitable even with the best cut and lubed nut sooner or later with trem use. However, all you have to do is give the offending string a quick tug or 3 fret bend and it will pop back into perfect tune.
Given that i bend a lot more than i use the trem, i prefer to set the guitar up like this. FWIW, this is also how eddei van halen did it before he started using floyds.

If you are a mad divebomber, you might prefer to do this: tune your string. divebomb the heck out of the arm. retune. repeat the process until the strings stay in tune with heavy divebombing. A google search will find you a video of an italian guy showing you how to do this, and it works. In this case the tension differential on the string is that they are looser at the fingerboard end and tighter at the headstock end. Your guitar will stay in tune with even the most ridiculous divebombing BUT....bends will make the string go flat. the remedy in this case is to deck the arm and your guitar will return to tune.

So if you want stability in tuning you have to accept that no trem setup is perfect because of changes in tension and friction at the nut. You just have to choose if you want stability from bending, or stability from diving.

Either that, or get a floyd.

 

[Archer250]

Re: American Standard Strat Trem Issue

I heard that this is an inherent issue with decked trems. I may be wrong.

 

[Funkfingers]

Re: American Standard Strat Trem Issue

Looks like another job for one of the Dan Erlewine repair/set-up books.

Three quick questions.
1) How many string guide "trees" does your Stratocaster have on its headstock?
2) Have you ever widened and/or smoothed the nut slots with a file?
3) How do you wrap your strings around the machinehead posts?

 

[Stratillac96]

Re: American Standard Strat Trem Issue

all trems whether strat or otherwise do this to a greater or lesser extent. The issue is at the nut.
A well cut bone, or tusq nut with either dry lubricant like graphite ot wet lube like some chap stick or nut sauce is pretty good, but it will still happen. Even on the best quality and best set up guitars. Friction is inevitable.

There is a solution tho, and it equally applies to decked or floating trems.

The thing is, you have to choose EITHER having the strings always returning to pitch when dive bombing OR having the string returning to pitch when you bend up.

Friction at the nut is an unavoidable fact of life. NO matter how what efforts you go to to eliminate friction, it will always be there to a small extent. You just need to choose your method of working with the small differentials in tension between the strings at either the headstock or the fretboard to manage the issue and have a more or less instantaneous method of rejigging the tuning while you play.

I prefer to have my strings return to pitch when i bend. This just means that you stretch the strings as you tune. When you tune a string, always give it either a firm tug or a 3 fret bend. If it goes flat, retune and re-bend. Keep repeating the process until the string stays in tune after being bent or pulled on. This will give you tuning stability. If you do not do the final stretch/bend and rechecking for tuning, then chances are the string will go out while you are playing.
Ok so that is pretty simple. What you have done is create a situation where the friction at the nut either allows equal tension at both ends of the string (best case perfect frictionless utopian world), or a very slight mismatch where the headstock end has a barely discernible difference where the string has less tension than the fingerboard end.
Now, when you divebomb, the string tension will change and you will end up where that tension differential is gone and your string goes sharp. This is inevitable even with the best cut and lubed nut sooner or later with trem use. However, all you have to do is give the offending string a quick tug or 3 fret bend and it will pop back into perfect tune.
Given that i bend a lot more than i use the trem, i prefer to set the guitar up like this. FWIW, this is also how eddei van halen did it before he started using floyds.

If you are a mad divebomber, you might prefer to do this: tune your string. divebomb the heck out of the arm. retune. repeat the process until the strings stay in tune with heavy divebombing. A google search will find you a video of an italian guy showing you how to do this, and it works. In this case the tension differential on the string is that they are looser at the fingerboard end and tighter at the headstock end. Your guitar will stay in tune with even the most ridiculous divebombing BUT....bends will make the string go flat. the remedy in this case is to deck the arm and your guitar will return to tune.

So if you want stability in tuning you have to accept that no trem setup is perfect because of changes in tension and friction at the nut. You just have to choose if you want stability from bending, or stability from diving.

Either that, or get a floyd.

Thanks for the advice- I definitely stretch the strings each time I re-string. I agree with you that the friction at the nut can always have the potential to cause tuning issues. I definitely don't expect it to return to perfect pitch every single time but my hope is that I can eventually use the trem (while set flat) even a little without the G going so sharp. I will try the tune/divebomb/repeat method and see what happens. I've tried it before but grew impatient with it pretty quickly, so it's entirely possible that I didn't stick with it long enough to yield a meaningful result.

 

[Stratillac96]

Re: American Standard Strat Trem Issue

Looks like another job for one of the Dan Erlewine repair/set-up books.

Three quick questions.
1) How many string guide "trees" does your Stratocaster have on its headstock?
2) Have you ever widened and/or smoothed the nut slots with a file?
3) How do you wrap your strings around the machinehead posts?

1) How many string guide "trees" does your Stratocaster have on its headstock? It has two. One for D & G, one for B & E.
2) Have you ever widened and/or smoothed the nut slots with a file? I personally have not, but my luthier typically checks and files the nut slots during setups. The guitar had 9s on it originally and I've gone up to 11s over the years, but both times I've gone up a gauge I took it to the shop to have it set up properly before doing so.
3) How do you wrap your strings around the machinehead posts? I typically wrap about 4 winds around the lower part, pull the rest through the hole, then tune and stretch until it stays in tune and cut off the end.

 

[Chickenwings]

Re: American Standard Strat Trem Issue

you only need one string tree.