Another Wilkinson VS-100 Not Returning To Pitch

[txrob779]

Howdy fellas,
I hate to beat a dead horse here but I am at my wicks end with this Wilinson VS-100. I'll try and keep this as short as possible.
I have a 1986 Charvel Model 1 (originally) that has been mutted into a burnt orange, single SD 59 pup, Wamouth strathead neck and a Wilkinson VS-100/Sperzel locking tuners setup (15ish years on now in this config). The 59 and the Wilkinson were robbed out of pawn shop stolen Yamaha Pacifica about the same time ago as the build give or take. A local FtWorth, Texas luthier routed and set up the VS-100, reset the Warmouth neck and did the paint job on the body and the original pointy head stock. I was NEVER able to get the Wiki to stay in tune with that pointy (at the time the band I play guitar in, 3 day Bender, was gigging 3 times a month roughly) so I bought a Chavel profile Warmouth neck.

Moving on, I still has returning to pitch issues BACK THEN and just played the guitar live with the bridge hartailed, which sucked because it is a bad ass guitar that I can't really play the way I'd like too. Fast forward from 2008 to 2015.
3 Day Bender is in rehearsals again and about to start gigging and I am fiddling with the Charvel mutt. I still can't get it stay in tune so off to the luthier ( who assembled it and set the mutt up originally) it goes. He installs a graphite nut and what seems to be an SLN Innovations Zero-Postition Ultimate Tremolo Stabilizer which I had never heard of before. It seemed to work a bit better but not at all well. So off I dive into OCD'ness with searching, reading, copy & pasting various thread replies and trying multiple fixes. Still no good. Hell I had to shed this guitar LIVE in the middle of a song and switch to another guitar it was so out of tune. Thay really pissed me off I gotta tell ya.
Yesterday, 7/28/16
I read a procedure that Eddie Van Halen did. He used Vaseline and pencil lead graphite. He would lubed the string saddles with vaseline and rubbed pencil lead through the string channels. The vaseline kept the graphite in place. He did the same thing on the nut (which I did as well. Both string saddles and nut), so
http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k535/txrob779/A09322FA-E2DC-4[IMG]
[IMG]http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k535/txrob779/A09322FA-E2DC-4983-9A8E-83C6260C2FE4.jpg

Also, I read about string and spring tension. How important the tension is to a tremolo returning to pitch correctly (though I thought I had this pretty much setup correctly) so I redid that setup as well to no avail DAMMIT.
So to recap, this guitar is pro built, has good parts, a great neck, a Wilkinson VS-100, a graphite nut, Sperzel locking machines, a tremolo stabilizer and STILL wont return in pitch. We are not talking Dimebag tremolo insanity here, just minor to moderate use. So, I releazed the tremolo stabilizer, bottomed out the trem bridge and finally ajusted the spring tension to at least play it and it stay in tune. This is flat out bulls**t and has just frustrated the sh*t out of me.

Can ANYONE offer any suggestions other than playing this guitar with the bridge bottomed out and down or changing tremolo's to a new Floyd Rose? For God saves chime it PLEASE.

Robert in Godely Texas

 

[AlexR]

Re: Another Wilkinson VS-100 Not Returning To Pitch

Haven't read the whole thesis, but with the blade trems (well all trems) there are several areas to consider.

1 springs vs strings. Tensions must be equal, but you usually find a tuning issue without using the guitar as you keep having to tune up/down.

mechanical interference in the fulcrum area. its quite often the case too with the original fender trem that the blades are not returning to the same place on the fulcrum. This can cause all sorts of issues as the change can be up or down depending on the last resting position of the bridge.

Its also important to consider what strings are going out, and what directions they go. That will help to see of the issue is global or isolated.

 

[Archer250]

Re: Another Wilkinson VS-100 Not Returning To Pitch

Check the knife edges and the trem posts. Try lubing it with chapstick.

 

[Cdwillis]

Re: Another Wilkinson VS-100 Not Returning To Pitch

Do you need to pull up on it? You can block it so it only goes down and increase the spring tension.

 

[KeeperOS]

Re: Another Wilkinson VS-100 Not Returning To Pitch

He said he's done that and it works but he wants to have it full-floating.

Like others mentioned already, check to see if the posts are loose and move or if they have any grooves dug into them and also check to see if the knife edges of the trem are good. If both points look fine, yeah, try chapstick and see if you have any luck.

Barring that, you might need to do sth you don't want i.e. plug up the post holes and re-drill new ones, install new posts and finally a new trem (a new VS-100).

 

[txrob779]

Re: Another Wilkinson VS-100 Not Returning To Pitch

It the G string staying sharp primarily. 99% of the time it's the G and low E sharp. Sometimes various strings flat. Hell its all over the place hence my utter frustration

 

[txrob779]

Re: Another Wilkinson VS-100 Not Returning To Pitch

I'd like it to work floating, even a step sharp pull would work.
The answer is no I don't HAVE to float it. I have to bottomed out against a bottomed out tremolo stabilizer now and it seems to stay in tune 95% of the time. I just have a bunch of money in the build of this mutt and would like the sum***** TO WORK right lol. Ya know what I mean.

Thanks for all the replies so far gentlemen

 

[txrob779]

Re: Another Wilkinson VS-100 Not Returning To Pitch

Or have a NIB Floyd installed

 

[DinoTrousers]

Re: Another Wilkinson VS-100 Not Returning To Pitch

What strings are you using? It's worth trying some Fender Bullets. The string end design keeps them a bit more stable at the bridge. I've had some success with them when restringing finicky strats at my shop.

 

[AlexR]

Re: Another Wilkinson VS-100 Not Returning To Pitch

The bridge moving on studs/anchors tends to cause wholesale issue.....all strings will be out.

If strings aren't able to seat properly in the block then they will tend to cause erratic flattenings.....but isolated more toward the time of installation.

Continual random strings going all ways sounds like the nut slots to my mind. I have 2 guitars with that same bridge, and it is very stable in both cases.

 

[Archer250]

Re: Another Wilkinson VS-100 Not Returning To Pitch

Floating bridges like to be... well, floating. It may sound stupid, but they are noticeably more stable when set up floating properly than when lightly decked. Fully decked and/or blocked is another story.

 

[eclecticsynergy]

Re: Another Wilkinson VS-100 Not Returning To Pitch

I know the nut is graphite and you lubed it too but I agree it sounds like a problem with binding, especially with the G string being the worst offender. Are you absolutely sure the nut slots are cut correctly for the gauge of strings you're using?

 

[KeeperOS]

Re: Another Wilkinson VS-100 Not Returning To Pitch

AlexR is right, if it were the posts or knifes then all strings would go either flat or sharp.
Additionally, if the G and (especially) the low E go sharp it is to be expected for the rest of the strings to go flat in a floating design. That basically means that it is the G and low E that are the real culprits.

Also, FWIW, I have had multiple guitars with Wilkinson trems and currently have two, a US-made VS-100 and a Gotoh-made VSV400 and they're both impossible to detune. The VSV400 one even has a cheap plastic (but well-cut) nut and it still doesn't give me any problems.

Like the others said that leads to one of two possibilities. Either it is indeed the nut that wasn't properly cut or, another thing (that's harder to tell) is perhaps there's an issue with the bridge itself, either the saddles or the hole(s) in either the base or block are damaged and the strings bind.
In order to tell you'd have to remove the trem and disassemble it and check each part for any grooves where the string could bind. Base would be the easiest, block would be the hardest. The Fender Bullets idea isn't bad either, it certainly wouldn't hurt.

 

[Brandenburg]

Re: Another Wilkinson VS-100 Not Returning To Pitch

Check the knife edges and the trem posts. Try lubing it with chapstick.

i was going to say put a small dab of vaseline on the knife edges... every full restring on my floyds ill condition the fretboard, blow out all the dust between the saddles and pup holes AND put some vaseline on the knife edges/post

 

[txrob779]

Re: Another Wilkinson VS-100 Not Returning To Pitch

"I know the nut is graphite and you lubed it too but I agree it sounds like a problem with binding, especially with the G string being the worst offender. Are you absolutely sure the nut slots are cut correctly for the gauge of strings you're using"?




No I am not 100% sure. I am blindly in faith of the luthier that installed and set the guitar up

 

[txrob779]

Re: Another Wilkinson VS-100 Not Returning To Pitch

"What strings are you using? It's worth trying some Fender Bullets. The string end design keeps them a bit more stable at the bridge. I've had some success with them when restringing finicky strats at my shop".




GHS Boomer 10-46's

 

[txrob779]

Re: Another Wilkinson VS-100 Not Returning To Pitch

Thanks to everyone that replied. The concensus is consistent. I mean it can really only be a few things and even fewer with the stuff I have done already. I'm going to take the bridge apart, inspect and reassemble. I have never cut on a nut before ever on 35 odd years of playing so I will send to another luthier I know and trust to fix this sum***** one way or the other.
Thanks a million fellas

Stay hard and keep jamming

 

[Ascension]

Re: Another Wilkinson VS-100 Not Returning To Pitch

FWIW, I have had multiple guitars with Wilkinson trems and currently have two, a US-made VS-100 and a Gotoh-made VSV400 and they're both impossible to detune. The VSV400 one even has a cheap plastic (but well-cut) nut and it still doesn't give me any problems.

Like the others said that leads to one of two possibilities. Either it is indeed the nut that wasn't properly cut or, another thing (that's harder to tell) is perhaps there's an issue with the bridge itself.

I agree with Keeper here and can vouch for the Red Washy Keeper has as he bought it from me being rock solid with the Wilky. I have owned a BUNCH of guitars with the Wilky systems am not easy on a trem system and they all were rock solid in tuning. heck with my Orange MG 102 I can even get the bumble bee flutter bounce with a VS-100 the way i have it set up. I NEVER retune that guitar during a set on stage!! My 1st guess is that your nut is cut wrong and causing binding or something is going on with the knife edges or the grooves they ride in on the post. Good luck as that is absolutely NOT normal for a real Wilky equipped guitar!!

 

[EDX]

Re: Another Wilkinson VS-100 Not Returning To Pitch

well, nowadays you don't need to cut a nut or have a luthier do it to have a decent nut, just get a precut nut from graphtech, just get a ruler to your nut and measure it, then just order the nearest to measure one from graphtech, if it's wider or longer just sand down to size, and if taller sand the underneath to level it (like with a locking nut), it won't be perfect made specially for the guitar but it will be really ok.

the graphtech black tusq i have on my guitar is really good, with the strings well stretched i can abuse the guitar all i want without it going out of tune (i don't have a trem but i like to do many steps bends, my picking hand attack could be called brutal and i like to do dives and bends ala jimmy, bending the neck itself by pushing and shifting the headstock, the guitar only gets out of tune with abrupt temp changes)

also you could use a zero glide nut, they're made to be easy to install by yourself

 

[txrob779]

Re: Another Wilkinson VS-100 Not Returning To Pitch

I appologize to the guys I replied too with out a "qoute" reply. I was on my phone and I guess it just sux LOL. I hope y'all could decipher what the hell I was replying too. Again, thanks to everyone and to Acension, that sounds like the way I play. Certainly not hardcore metal these days but I still have a heavy right hand and I pretty heavy left one. On my guitars with jumbo frets in the heat of LIVE'ness, I often find myself pushing hard enough to sharpen the notes in chord phrasing. I have to consciously lighten up LOL.

Peace
Robert