Antiquities and vintage voiced Custom Shop--competing with each other?

[Inflames626]

With the launch of the Antiquity line and the huge expansion of the Custom Shop/site recently, I've noticed that we now have about four lines of pickups.

Low end--Duncan Designed
Mid level--production models
High end--Antiquities
Highest end--Custom Shop

I understand the logic of the Custom Shop fine when you either want to build a custom voiced pickup (in my case, the low end of a Demon and the high end of a Full Shred), or you want a very particularly voiced pickup like the 78 model.

However, in situations where you're going vintage, say the Custom Shop 60s singles, and the Antiquities, it seems to me to be almost Chevy vs. GM -ish. That is, there are too many badges for the same product and it confuses, not helps, customers--IF they're going the Custom Shop route to get a certain tone that might be covered by Antiquities and not going Custom in order to fill in gaps in the production models (as, in my case, a halfway point between the Demon and Shred).

I've noticed Fender increasing their lines too to a lesser extent with their bass pickups (Original vs. Custom Shop vs. Pure Vintage), and perhaps EMG (mixing in their SRO line, which a lot of people like, with their HZ line, with Selects still in there somehow).

I understand companies wanting to be responsive to demand, but it's almost like DiMarzio now where there are just too many models. I'm more comfortable with how EMG had it in the 90s--you had your 81, 85, 60, and (rarely) a 60A. Everyone knew how they sounded. These basic differences among humbuckers were reflected in the S and SA lines for singles. There were enough models for variety but not enough to be overwhelming. Duncan had this also, more or less--you had your JB, your Distortion, your Jazz, and your 59.

I'm just wondering if anyone else has the same "Oh no, not another model this week/month" feeling that I've been having lately. In a sense, it's beautiful because there's more variety. In another, it's overwhelming because there's another pickup to try some day. It's a mixed blessing.

 

[AlexR]

Re: Antiquities and vintage voiced Custom Shop--competing with each other?

The whole point of the custom shop is that it doesn't overlap any regular lines.
There are almost infinite variations on PAF/vintage singlecoil winds.......subtle to be sure, but if your ears and amp/playing is good enough then they certainly don't sound 'exactly the same'.

 

[Inflames626]

Re: Antiquities and vintage voiced Custom Shop--competing with each other?

The whole point of the custom shop is that it doesn't overlap any regular lines.
There are almost infinite variations on PAF/vintage singlecoil winds.......subtle to be sure, but if your ears and amp/playing is good enough then they certainly don't sound 'exactly the same'.

That's true. But then there arise other factors in the mix beyond the pickup where it becomes complicated, including playing technique and gear and, for recording, plugin processing. Divorcing all these from the pickup is hard. Ears may be sensitive, but would a blindfolded person be able to tell Custom Shop from any of the other lines dialed in properly, and, if so, would the difference be "worth it?" From a tone standpoint, I'm doubtful, but as far as feel and how a pickup makes you play, it's different.

There's no accounting for taste, and there's no replacement for trial and error, ultimately.

I love the idea of the CS for making exactly what one wants if there is a hugely noticeable difference, but trying to cover every possible minute variation on vintage among all models seems a bit overkill. It's enough that there is disagreement among different manufacturers about how to do the same thing, but that makes sense given different opinions in R&D and differing patents and proprietary designs.

But with all the vintage-itis going on in, to me it seems to render the Antiquity line somewhat pointless if vintage specs are already made by the CS. The idea is there is a greater level of care, better materials, more labor intensive process, etc., going into the CS to make it sound "better" or "more authentic," or what have you than standard pickups. But the Ants were already supposed to cover that. I suppose the Ants sounding like older versions of new pickups relative to production models makes sense, but again, it becomes confusing when product lines are not clearly tiered.

I just can't help but wonder how many more scoops and cherries we can put on top of this sundae until guitar players feel like they have the most superlative piece of gear possible.

 

[Mincer]

Re: Antiquities and vintage voiced Custom Shop--competing with each other?

The Custom Shop even does hand-made versions of regular production models. I think the 4 lines are pretty distinct for most customers, though. In all, they hit many price points, without too much confusion (according to the customers) and that is about all anyone could want.

 

[Demanic]

Re: Antiquities and vintage voiced Custom Shop--competing with each other?

I'd rather have too many choices than too few.

Sent from my MotoE2(4G-LTE) using Tapatalk

 

[PFDarkside]

Re: Antiquities and vintage voiced Custom Shop--competing with each other?

It's like racing: How fast do you want to go? How much money do you have?

Every player keeps stepping up until their needs are fulfilled. Happy with Seths, 59s, SSL-1s and STB-1s? Cool. Want more vintage accurate components, aged magnets, and other special touches? You've got Antiquities. Want to take those and modify some aspects to create the perfect vintage pickup in your mind's eye? Call the custom shop.

It actually kind of IS like GM, with Chevy being the everyman's car, Buick/GMC being a step up and Cadillac being top of the line.

 

[Inflames626]

Re: Antiquities and vintage voiced Custom Shop--competing with each other?

Duncan's 45 day return policy definitely helps. That said, if you want to do an extensive pup shootout all in one weekend, it can be a bit steep if there are many models you want to try.

The question becomes whether one is getting what one pays for. Not picking on Duncan here, but with any gear.

You know THOSE guys who just have to have THOSE type of caps even though few to no one can hear the difference between paper in oil and ceramic caps? Well it goes for pickups too, I think.

As far as GM/Chevy:

http://www.thecarconnection.com/news/1076875_gmc-models-cost-more-than-chevy-why-and-which-is-better

"For some of those who do pay more for new GMC vehicles, a big portion are repeat buyers, who for some reason or another (different trim or styling cues, their dealership, or the allure of the badge) prefer the brand. Despite that, they're generally assembled at the same place and have the same underlying structure and core components—so no, we can't say they're better."

Guitar tone is a lot more subjective than making sure a car doesn't die on you, but at the same time, a lot of people don't buy a car for utility. I guess SUV enthusiasts, sports car drivers, and guitarists all have big egos.

But, if it keeps up, shopping for pups will be about as overwhelming as shopping for a PC gaming graphics card.

 

[AlexR]

Re: Antiquities and vintage voiced Custom Shop--competing with each other?

Pickups are a hell of a lot more influential than caps though. I think maybe you have had extremely limited experience in the differing winds you can do even amongst PAF type pickups even with the same K specs. Nobody sitting in the same room as the player there would say they were identical. Same with vintage strength singlecoils. If you are particularly sensitive to a certain frequency range, or like hearing a particular voicing of pickup that is not covered by the stock range then the CS pickups will make all the difference in the world.
If you are insensitive to these matters then I can see that you would find it somewhat meaningless.

 

[Boogie Bill]

Re: Antiquities and vintage voiced Custom Shop--competing with each other?

I have several Les Pauls, but three of them came to mind in thinking about this thread.

One is a 2005 Les Paul Supreme. Had a tech rip out the awful 490R/498T set and put in a production Seths with an RS Kit. Fantastic results, a much more usable guitar for my styles, and I couldn't be happier.

Two are Les Paul Classic models with Premium Plus tops. The 1997 Honeyburst got a set of Antiquitys. The 1996 HCSB got a set of the Custom Shop 50th Anniversary A2 Seth Lovers from Musician's Friend. (Wish I'd bought 10 sets of these!!!) Both are fantastic, and really take me back to the tones I remember of the '58--'60 LP Sunbursts--back when they could be had for $150 from a pawn shop circa 1965. (Then Clapton, Beck, Page and Richards ruined everything!!! LOL!)

All are different. My favorite is whichever guitar I happen to be playing. And I also love the Gibson Burstbucker 1 & 2 sets in my Historics, too. But I can say that there is definitely something special about the 50th Anniversary Seths. I got them as they were closing them out, so they were discounted, but even if I'd paid full CS price I'd feel like I'd gotten my money's worth. Ever play a pickup and want just a little bit MORE? Well, that's what these are--just a little bit more than the production Seths.

I have one guitar that I'm thinking about trying the WLH set in. And I'm seriously considering getting a set of the Bonamassa pickups from the Custom Shop for another guitar. Joe does get some great tones. And I KNOW that if I'd ordered a set from the CS, I'd be pretty happy with them, based on my limited experience.

There are just SO many pickups out there--it's as bad as trying to find the one Tubescreamer/clone OD that is "the BEST". Fortunately, Duncan does have the 45 day policy. They truly make an effort to provide something for everyone. It's a good thing.

I'm old enough to remember the dark days before all these companies offering aftermarket part arose. Don't want to go back.

Bill

 

[Inflames626]

Re: Antiquities and vintage voiced Custom Shop--competing with each other?

I think maybe you have had extremely limited experience in the differing winds you can do even amongst PAF type pickups even with the same K specs. . . . If you are insensitive to these matters then I can see that you would find it somewhat meaningless.

I don't think insensitive is the right word. I just don't find the differences to be worth the hype a lot of times. Especially with recording, it's so much easier now to compensate for a pickup's weaknesses with parametric EQs and impulse responses, which can be much more precise than a pickup. As an example, I am not a big fan of the JB, but a nice high pass filter on the low end will tighten that pickup up considerably.

An example of sensitivity to winds might be when I used the 57 Classic and 57 Classic + in the neck of the same axe. A bit more winds and emphasis on the upper mids with the 57+ made the thing come alive, and it's my favorite A2 pickup I've tried so far in the neck. Alas it doesn't split. The Burstbuckers mentioned above are another example of where I can hear a difference depending on whether it is 1 2 or 3. The question is whether the subtle difference is worth it or whether one is chasing diminishing returns.

Rather than focus on tone, I prefer to focus on how a pickup feels. Some time back I tried an Alt 8 in the bridge and a Full Shred in the bridge. Even backed into the body completely, the Alt 8 was too fuzzy for me. I didn't need that much output because the amp software gave me whatever I needed. I found myself not relaxing while I played, as I felt I was fighting the pickup. The FS needed a little low end boosted, but aside from that, it felt very natural, and I enjoyed having such a flat sounding, articulate pickup. Having to work with a blunt instrument like a 59 in comparison was not pleasurable, and any "tone" missing from the FS that the 59 had could have been dialed in on the amp or in software.

In the end it's all about taste. I'll probably pick up a whole mess of them some long weekend and do a test once and for all (and probably record them for the community, as I'm doing with the basses). I simply remain skeptical that moving up in perceived quality and price is worth it given the tools that guitarists now have at their disposal that make pickups a less decisive factor in determining tone. It might be different in a live situation, but my buddies gig with Axe FXs and Kempers. I don't think anyone can tell what pups they have installed, although I'm sure the musician can tell based on how they handle the instrument when they play.

Funny on the disagreement on Gibsons. I had always been skeptical of anything made by Fender/Gibson after the early 70s because that's when the perceived quality started to drop and their in house pickup designs were superseded by the three big aftermarket producers. But I've found the 498t to be one of my very favorite pickups. I'm sorry I overlooked Gibson for so long now, although I like the Duncan Custom 5 a lot as well.

 

[beaubrummels]

Re: Antiquities and vintage voiced Custom Shop--competing with each other?

With the launch of the Antiquity line and the huge expansion of the Custom Shop/site recently, I've noticed that we now have about four lines of pickups.

Low end--Duncan Designed
Mid level--production models
High end--Antiquities
Highest end--Custom Shop

I understand the logic of the Custom Shop fine when you either want to build a custom voiced pickup (in my case, the low end of a Demon and the high end of a Full Shred), or you want a very particularly voiced pickup like the 78 model.

However, in situations where you're going vintage, say the Custom Shop 60s singles, and the Antiquities, it seems to me to be almost Chevy vs. GM -ish. That is, there are too many badges for the same product and it confuses, not helps, customers--IF they're going the Custom Shop route to get a certain tone that might be covered by Antiquities and not going Custom in order to fill in gaps in the production models (as, in my case, a halfway point between the Demon and Shred).

I've noticed Fender increasing their lines too to a lesser extent with their bass pickups (Original vs. Custom Shop vs. Pure Vintage), and perhaps EMG (mixing in their SRO line, which a lot of people like, with their HZ line, with Selects still in there somehow).

I understand companies wanting to be responsive to demand, but it's almost like DiMarzio now where there are just too many models. I'm more comfortable with how EMG had it in the 90s--you had your 81, 85, 60, and (rarely) a 60A. Everyone knew how they sounded. These basic differences among humbuckers were reflected in the S and SA lines for singles. There were enough models for variety but not enough to be overwhelming. Duncan had this also, more or less--you had your JB, your Distortion, your Jazz, and your 59.

I'm just wondering if anyone else has the same "Oh no, not another model this week/month" feeling that I've been having lately. In a sense, it's beautiful because there's more variety. In another, it's overwhelming because there's another pickup to try some day. It's a mixed blessing.

Keep in mind Duncan serves just as wide a range of musicians as the range of products. While there may be a great number of home/bedroom amateurs trying out different pickups to make budget instruments sing like the pros, there are also working professionals as customers who need their instrument to sound exactly a particular way, they have great demands on them either for shows or in the studio, and the custom prices are not as much of a concern. There's a maxim in the music biz that that last 20% of quality costs 80% of the price (more correctly stated, 180% of the price); meaning getting that marginal difference that matters to professionals costs almost double what base products cost, but if you are professional, you are almost obliged to pay for it to get 'that' sound.

 

[AlexR]

Re: Antiquities and vintage voiced Custom Shop--competing with each other?

Also you don't want to have to keep adjusting the amp every time you swap guitars to adjust to certain pickups. Almost all guitar players have a wide range of guitars and sounds to deal with, and the amp gets either set up for one guitar type, or as a 'jack of all trades' to cover a multiple of pickups. In these cases (like mine) you can't afford to aimlessly twiddle amp knobs just hoping.

Also the very limited amp eq doesn't do very much in most cases to remove/augment/sculpt most tonal aspects that pickups of different winds will fix.

There are a wide variety of players, hence the wide variety of ways to get what you want. Not all people do things in that same narrow way of thinking......thank god.......creativity is the heart of music.

 

[Inflames626]

Re: Antiquities and vintage voiced Custom Shop--competing with each other?

"Also you don't want to have to keep adjusting the amp every time you swap guitars to adjust to certain pickups. Almost all guitar players have a wide range of guitars and sounds to deal with, and the amp gets either set up for one guitar type, or as a 'jack of all trades' to cover a multiple of pickups. In these cases (like mine) you can't afford to aimlessly twiddle amp knobs just hoping.

Also the very limited amp eq doesn't do very much in most cases to remove/augment/sculpt most tonal aspects that pickups of different winds will fix."

This is a problem. Thankfully, it's fixed by increasingly sophisticated presets and MIDI switching, where dozens of minute details can be changed with a flick of the foot. But, as you said, it probably won't mean much to a traditional blues player who wants to set something up and forget it.

My fear is so many choices feed into Gear Acquisition Syndrome (I know it does for me). This is of course convenient for manufacturers. My concern is when/if this will become a liability, as it was for car companies making so many models and sub brands, and then product lines will have to contract.

"there are also working professionals as customers who need their instrument to sound exactly a particular way, they have great demands on them either for shows or in the studio, and the custom prices are not as much of a concern. There's a maxim in the music biz that that last 20% of quality costs 80% of the price (more correctly stated, 180% of the price); meaning getting that marginal difference that matters to professionals costs almost double what base products cost, but if you are professional, you are almost obliged to pay for it to get 'that' sound."

I wouldn't know without seeing the contents of each endorsement deal and how changes in recorded music sales have impacted endorsements over the last 15 years. Some pros probably get things at a discount, others get custom made, others get things supplied to them, others may even get paid to use the product.

I see it in an almost utilitarian way. String endorsement deals, for example. They're a huge benefit because strings are such a big cost for touring musicians who insist on changing strings nightly. So much here isn't the quality of the string, I think, but finding someone who will do the deal in the first place. It works for the gear manufacturer and the musician because of cross promotion. I think what's important for many of them who aren't the biggest stars is finding a company that will support you with a quality product, since providing free gear can be expensive and, with recorded music sales down, shoveling free gear to fledgling acts may not be the best option since the company may not see a return on endorsements and marketing. Most players probably start with whatever they used growing up, then as they become more influential in the market they branch out. I'm skeptical of the idea that pros try something because they like it relative to all other models. I know some people with endorsement deals with certain products who use a model and haven't really tried any of the others. No time.

With the problem of shoveling gear onto artists that aren't going anywhere, here we enter into YouTube guitarists, who I'm sure get free samples to review gear in return for "reviewing" (promoting) their products. Fluff comes to mind. Over the course of a video series, we get to see people's rigs costing tens of thousands of dollars. Unfortunately, I think many of them are known more for their gear than the originality of their music or how many songs they've sold.