Anybody know the exact spacing between the nut and the 1st fret on a 25 scale guitar?

[Ascension]

Have a problem child and suspect the nut placement is off on this guitar. Intonate it at the 12th fret and when you play a note at the 1st fret it will be sharp. The further up the neck you go the closer it comes in then is spot on at the 12th. Measures in at 1 3/4 of an inch on this one but my calculations say it should be 1 and 1/2 so would make the nut 1/8 to far back. Am I right?

 

[DavidRavenMoon]

Re: Anybody know the exact spacing between the nut and the 1st fret on a 25 scale gui

1.403”

How high is the action at the nut? If you press a string down on the 3rd fret, the string should just clear the first fret by a hair.

Too high and your notes will bend sharp.


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[AlexR]

Re: Anybody know the exact spacing between the nut and the 1st fret on a 25 scale gui

Its one of the issues of intonating only using the 12th fret......Try playing the fretted noted from 5th to 1st fret and adjusting so they all read in tune (or very close to).

 

[DavidRavenMoon]

Anybody know the exact spacing between the nut and the 1st fret on a 25 scale guitar?

Its one of the issues of intonating only using the 12th fret......Try playing the fretted noted from 5th to 1st fret and adjusting so they all read in tune (or very close to).

It shouldn’t matter. We adjust intonation to compensate for the increasing distance between the string and the frets. This causes the string to be stretched more at the upper frets, causing it to sound sharp.

We use the 12th fret because it’s adequately up the neck and is an octave higher than open strings.

The action at the 5th fret is too low to cause much of an issue.

The big issue with lower frets is the stiffness if the strings at the anchor point (the nut). This causes the harmonics to sound sharp and is why there are compensated nuts. Just moving the entire nut slightly closer to the first fret will improve the pitch of the strings at the lower frets. This is how the Buzz Feiten system works.


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[AlexR]

Re: Anybody know the exact spacing between the nut and the 1st fret on a 25 scale gui

People use the 12th because it gets the average right......but further from the place where it is right, it gets more out of tune fretted.
Of course if you like low action, it makes it easier as the nut is cut lower too. But for those with higher action the nut gets a bit higher fractionally as well. So the notes will pull sharper.

 

[Ascension]

Re: Anybody know the exact spacing between the nut and the 1st fret on a 25 scale gui

1.403”

How high is the action at the nut? If you press a string down on the 3rd fret, the string should just clear the first fret by a hair.

Too high and your notes will bend sharp.


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Nut height is not a problem. Action is quite low across the neck and frets are jumbo stainless. This guitar sounds way off in a band situation when tuned dead on 440 A at both open and the 12th fret no matter what I do.

 

[DavidRavenMoon]

Re: Anybody know the exact spacing between the nut and the 1st fret on a 25 scale gui

People use the 12th because it gets the average right......but further from the place where it is right, it gets more out of tune fretted.
Of course if you like low action, it makes it easier as the nut is cut lower too. But for those with higher action the nut gets a bit higher fractionally as well. So the notes will pull sharper.

Even if your action is 1/4” at the 12th fret, the nut should be cut so the strings are the same height as the first fret. The strings miss the fret because the action increases as you go up the neck.

On my guitars I often use a zero fret which perfectly sets the string height at the “nut.”

But intonation is adjusted for the upper frets, not the lower ones.


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[ehdwuld]

Re: Anybody know the exact spacing between the nut and the 1st fret on a 25 scale gui

I love snark headstock tuners
But when I tune up my Epiphone Florentine with one
It sounds like arse

Pedal tuner or any other tuner is fine
Just not the Headstock variety

Could be the long headstock

Not saying that's what's happening

 

[Ayrton]

Re: Anybody know the exact spacing between the nut and the 1st fret on a 25 scale gui

Use the StewMac calculator

https://www.stewmac.com/FretCalculator

I love snark headstock tuners
But when I tune up my Epiphone Florentine with one
It sounds like arse

Might need calibrating.

 

[Ascension]

Re: Anybody know the exact spacing between the nut and the 1st fret on a 25 scale gui

Im reaching out to Kiesel on this one as it flat is not right some how. Owned Carvins for years have ( probably 20 or so over the years) but this is my 1st Kiesel and own a total of 16 guitars right now. I have never had fits with one like this one just not playing in tune. Guitar is my red 2017 Keisel DC 127.

 

[kramersteen]

Re: Anybody know the exact spacing between the nut and the 1st fret on a 25 scale gui

The passion came through when i read how you have had like 20 carvin guitars. I had a nice dc127 i sold because i didn't click with it but looking back on it now i sort of wised i kept it.

 

[Ascension]

Re: Anybody know the exact spacing between the nut and the 1st fret on a 25 scale gui

The passion came through when i read how you have had like 20 carvin guitars. I had a nice dc127 i sold because i didn't click with it but looking back on it now i sort of wised i kept it.

Yep have loved these guitars since I picked up my 1st one in 1992 ( a used 1989 DC400 In Sapphire Blue Flame and a wringer for Jason Beckers #1 except mine had an ebony board). I bought 2 Gibson Showcase guitars in 1988 but both just fell apart on the road so I traded the WRC for the Carvin and never looked back. Guitar stayed in tune and in the 20 years i owned it I never so much as touched the truss rod. Guitar almost still looked new when I sold it a few years ago. I only sold her because it was sold maple and weighed in at just under 11 pounds!
This 17 plays like butter and is visually STUNNING but just will not intonate!! Never ever have had this issue with one of these guitar but---.

 

[AlexR]

Re: Anybody know the exact spacing between the nut and the 1st fret on a 25 scale gui

Its certainly odd that a seemingly large production enterprise would get something like this wrong, Gibson for example has a cylinder that contains a miniblade fixed in place for every slot. There is only 1 cut done and every fret slot is done.....obviously the fretboard is slotted into the right place within the automated process. I would expect a similar type of process for every big maker.
Plus the neck and body would likely have very tight tolerances for the fretboard ends being too long. If this mis-calculation extends to the fretboard length then it would become very obvious with the headstock transition or the pickup rout end.
It would seem to be more like the nut cut is out - is the nut like a Fender where it is in the middle of the fretboard blank, or does the fretboard terminate at the nut??

 

[Ascension]

Re: Anybody know the exact spacing between the nut and the 1st fret on a 25 scale gui

Its certainly odd that a seemingly large production enterprise would get something like this wrong, Gibson for example has a cylinder that contains a miniblade fixed in place for every slot. There is only 1 cut done and every fret slot is done.....obviously the fretboard is slotted into the right place within the automated process. I would expect a similar type of process for every big maker.
Plus the neck and body would likely have very tight tolerances for the fretboard ends being too long. If this mis-calculation extends to the fretboard length then it would become very obvious with the headstock transition or the pickup rout end.
It would seem to be more like the nut cut is out - is the nut like a Fender where it is in the middle of the fretboard blank, or does the fretboard terminate at the nut??

You likely hit the issue here. They normally cut for a normal nut and a Floyd Style lock nut is optional. My other DC 400 with a floyd has a normal nut (and would have been how I ordered one) but this one was ordered with the optional Floyd locking nut. I wonder if they just missed on the nut placement? Bought the Guitar used at my local Guitar Center just before Christmas. It was originally invoiced in late April of 2017 and likely was delivered after the build about 1 year ago now. Was looking to build one that was almost identical and the number was about $800 above what I could buy this one for so I jumped.

 

[ItsaBass]

Re: Anybody know the exact spacing between the nut and the 1st fret on a 25 scale gui

You likely hit the issue here. They normally cut for a normal nut and a Floyd Style lock nut is optional. My other DC 400 with a floyd has a normal nut (and would have been how I ordered one) but this one was ordered with the optional Floyd locking nut. I wonder if they just missed on the nut placement? Bought the Guitar used at my local Guitar Center just before Christmas. It was originally invoiced in late April of 2017 and likely was delivered after the build about 1 year ago now. Was looking to build one that was almost identical and the number was about $800 above what I could buy this one for so I jumped.

Just out of curiosity, is the 2nd fret the proper distance from the 1st fret?

 

[Ascension]

Re: Anybody know the exact spacing between the nut and the 1st fret on a 25 scale gui

Just out of curiosity, is the 2nd fret the proper distance from the 1st fret?

These necks are all cut with precision on a CNC machine including the nut and fret slots so would be shocked if that was off. Carvin/ Kiesel guitars are normally very consistent and super precise so?? A floyd nut however is an option and the neck is hand cut for it so---.

 

[kramersteen]

Re: Anybody know the exact spacing between the nut and the 1st fret on a 25 scale gui

Yep have loved these guitars since I picked up my 1st one in 1992 ( a used 1989 DC400 In Sapphire Blue Flame and a wringer for Jason Beckers #1 except mine had an ebony board). I bought 2 Gibson Showcase guitars in 1988 but both just fell apart on the road so I traded the WRC for the Carvin and never looked back. Guitar stayed in tune and in the 20 years i owned it I never so much as touched the truss rod. Guitar almost still looked new when I sold it a few years ago. I only sold her because it was sold maple and weighed in at just under 11 pounds!
This 17 plays like butter and is visually STUNNING but just will not intonate!! Never ever have had this issue with one of these guitar but---.

WRC that gibson shred stick? I scored a rare gotoh tremolo off one of those and it feels nice and also looks unique.

 

[Ascension]

Re: Anybody know the exact spacing between the nut and the 1st fret on a 25 scale gui

WRC that gibson shred stick? I scored a rare gotoh tremolo off one of those and it feels nice and also looks unique.

Yep and the WRC stands for Wayne Ray Charvell BTW! Had a WRC and a Showcase U2 both bought new in 1988. Biggest POS guitars i have ever owned!!!

 

[Ascension]

Re: Anybody know the exact spacing between the nut and the 1st fret on a 25 scale gui

Use the StewMac calculator

https://www.stewmac.com/FretCalculator .

Thanks bro helped a BUNCH! Pulled out my super precise Sterett ruler got the numbers from that site and and looks like the nut was on slightly crooked so loosened and reset it. Re tweaked the intonation and it seems much better now. Been fooled by this one before so will know for certain in the morning when I get it in a full band situation if that got it keep you posted.

 

[kramersteen]

Re: Anybody know the exact spacing between the nut and the 1st fret on a 25 scale gui

Yep and the WRC stands for Wayne Ray Charvell BTW! Had a WRC and a Showcase U2 both bought new in 1988. Biggest POS guitars i have ever owned!!!

yeah i know exactly what it is. Did it have that tremolo like mine? Why was it so bad?