Anyone else have to use TWO noisegates?

[DeadandBuried]

I have the Peavey 6505+ head, which I love, the lead channel is insane and perfect for the style we play, think ADTR, Chunk No Captain Chunk, Devil Wears Prada, Bring Me The Horizon, etc etc you get the idea.

However its REALLY noisy on the lead channel, I have the ISP Decimator G string which is in the FX loop to stop this, dial the knob in at about 11 o'clock and it seems to do the trick.

Another problem is I run an Ibanez Tubescreamer TS9 in front of the amp to give it a bit more of a kick, which is the reputable tried and tested setup for these modern metalcore type bands. The TS9 is noisy as well and causes unwanted squealing when doing the chuggy stop starty riffs.

The drive is on zero and the level is about 12 noon, turn it up any higher and it'll start making noise.

So I inserted a Boss NS-2 after the TS9 and in front of the amp. Seems to cut it out but I think it sucks tone. Never thought I'd have to use TWO noise gates in my setup! Before I owned a Marshall JCM2000 and didn't need to use anything.

I did read Misha Mansoor uses THREE noisegates in his setup, which is pretty crazy!

I've seen rig rundowns of The Devil Wears Prada and Matt Tuck from Bullet For My Valentine, both use NS-2's and ISP's in both the FX loop and in front of the amp.

So would this set up of 2 noisegates seem to solve the issue? And I will suffer tone loss inevitably.

Shall I keep the NS-2 before the amp or get another ISP (the first one) and run that between the TS9 and amp?

 

[CTN]

Re: Anyone else have to use TWO noisegates?

lotsa people use two noise gates exactly like you're doing, one in front to tame the noise from pedals, and another in the loop to tame noise from the preamp.

If you don't like the NS-2's slight dampening of the signal, get another ISP. There are several ways to use the NS-2 though, and I found that the most effective is like so:

guitar -> input
send -> pedals
pedals -> return
output -> amp

it does introduce a slight dampening effect on the highs but I don't mind too much.

 

[everdrone]

Re: Anyone else have to use TWO noisegates?

decimator gstring2 was built for two noisegate pedals, check out their instruction manual. as said, periphery does this with 2 noisegates; I bet using the TS digital pedal in axefx would reduce noise even more

other sources of noise include the guitar / pickup wiring, and the electricity not being processed by furman and ???

 

[DeadandBuried]

Re: Anyone else have to use TWO noisegates?

Yeah its important for break downs and stuff that after the chugged note its a clean silence.

The NS-2 dampens clean channels as well I've read, and I don't want that, not that I use LOADS of cleans but I switch regularly via the footswitch to a crunchy sound for dynamics.

I could just get another ISP then? Not the G-string version though but the normal one for the front end of the amp? This shouldn't affect my tone too much?

And will it affect channel changes?

 

[DrNewcenstein]

Re: Anyone else have to use TWO noisegates?

If you're facing the amp, that's where the squealy stuff comes from when you stop. It's not going away except at low volumes. If it does it with your back to the amp, and you're not on stage, turn it down a bit.

Also realize that what you're hearing on the CD has been doubled and layered and post-processed to hell and back. One guitar and one amp will not be enough.

For live settings, more volume generally means you can use less gain than for the CD, since you're sending shockwaves into the crowd. As well, there's still the layering effect, particularly when two guitarists and the bassist are all hitting the same note at the same time. Then there's the wondrous assortment of live signal processing gear that gets you that studio/CD tone on stage once it goes through the FOH console. Harmonizers and the like are not just for doing the Steve Vai stuff.

 

[DeadandBuried]

Re: Anyone else have to use TWO noisegates?

I don't have a problem with feedback coming from the guitar, I can control that no matter where I'm standing, and I certainly don't perform facing my amp!

The problem is the Ibanez tube-screamer making noise when kicked on. The pre-gain on the amp is 5. The extra gain and boost comes from the TS9.

However the Gstring Decimator can't do BOTH tasks of silencing a noisy pre-amp AND an overdrive pedal, hence why I think I need 2 decimators.

 

[everdrone]

Re: Anyone else have to use TWO noisegates?

I don't have a problem with feedback coming from the guitar, I can control that no matter where I'm standing, and I certainly don't perform facing my amp!

The problem is the Ibanez tube-screamer making noise when kicked on. The pre-gain on the amp is 5. The extra gain and boost comes from the TS9.

However the Gstring Decimator can't do BOTH tasks of silencing a noisy pre-amp AND an overdrive pedal, hence why I think I need 2 decimators.

read the manual (again) - there is a loop dedicated for the pedals only, and a separate processing for the guitar signal for gstring decimator, how does your pedalboard look???

the preamp is normally not noisy unless there is malfunctioning

 

[DeadandBuried]

Re: Anyone else have to use TWO noisegates?

I thought the G string was meant for an effects loop OR in front of amp, not BOTH at the same time.

My re-arranged board now looks like this: (please excuse silly writing on the pedals, its a humour thing I like to do)



So guitar signal goes to GUITAR IN on the ISP.

GUITAR OUT goes to TS9, then into currently the NS-2 into front of amp.

DEC IN/OUT go into send/return of the amp.

 

[ParameterMan]

Re: Anyone else have to use TWO noisegates?

What? The writing is the best part!

You're set up correctly with the ISP. The only thing that's happening is the TS9 is changing the noise floor when engaged and thus the "proper" setting for the ISP. Eliminating the NS-2 and raising the threshold of the ISP should work even better.

Any time you're keying a gate off of a signal that already has increased noise, is clipped or compressed(such as after the TS9) it gets counterproductive as the gate has a much smaller sweet spot to work with. You want to be able to trigger the gate from a signal that contains no undesirable components.

On the other hand, you need a good way to effectively have presets for the ISP as the correct setting with boost is probably waaay too damped for your straight distortion. Does the NS-2 have a loop? Can you put the TS in the loop, leave it on, and use the NS-2 to switch it in and out?

You could try a really fast choppy gate like the NS-2 inserted the same way as the ISP(keyed off the dry guitar, gating in the amp's loop) that gets engaged at the same time as your OD to give you an incredibly percussive damped sound.

I think I personally would try to solve this problem from a different angle - take the amp to a good tech and have him quiet it down. Tubes, critical resistors, capacitors, wire routing, shielding can make a difference. Get a different OD pedal that sounds similar but is quieter. Check your cables and make sure they're not noisy or crackly. Change the pickup mounting springs to surgical tubing and add some foam under the pickups. Put a damper behind the nut and/or bridge - those segments of string really ring out when you're chugging under massive gain.

 

[Mrkensei]

Re: Anyone else have to use TWO noisegates?

I have the Peavey 6505+ head, which I love, the lead channel is insane and perfect for the style we play, think ADTR, Chunk No Captain Chunk, Devil Wears Prada, Bring Me The Horizon, etc etc you get the idea.

However its REALLY noisy on the lead channel, I have the ISP Decimator G string which is in the FX loop to stop this, dial the knob in at about 11 o'clock and it seems to do the trick.

Another problem is I run an Ibanez Tubescreamer TS9 in front of the amp to give it a bit more of a kick, which is the reputable tried and tested setup for these modern metalcore type bands. The TS9 is noisy as well and causes unwanted squealing when doing the chuggy stop starty riffs.

The drive is on zero and the level is about 12 noon, turn it up any higher and it'll start making noise.

So I inserted a Boss NS-2 after the TS9 and in front of the amp. Seems to cut it out but I think it sucks tone. Never thought I'd have to use TWO noise gates in my setup! Before I owned a Marshall JCM2000 and didn't need to use anything.

I did read Misha Mansoor uses THREE noisegates in his setup, which is pretty crazy!

I've seen rig rundowns of The Devil Wears Prada and Matt Tuck from Bullet For My Valentine, both use NS-2's and ISP's in both the FX loop and in front of the amp.

So would this set up of 2 noisegates seem to solve the issue? And I will suffer tone loss inevitably.

Shall I keep the NS-2 before the amp or get another ISP (the first one) and run that between the TS9 and amp?

I run 2 gates too. i use an Alesis 3630 compressor/gate. This, like many rack mounted gates has two channels. My setup is:


Guitar-> noise gate->Amp input (5150II)->send->KFK1 eq-> noise gate ->tc electronics m300-> receive-> amp-> 4x12

 

[DeadandBuried]

Re: Anyone else have to use TWO noisegates?

LOL thanks! Haha.

Yeah that set up with the ISP is to quiet down the pre-amp noise, that's not a problem anymore as its doing its job perfectly.

Now for the TS9, without the NS-2 after it is noisy. The NS-2 does have a loop yes, are you implying I swap it in for the ISP? Where would the ISP go then?

I don't mind getting an ISP II if it means I can chug with no unwanted noise coming from the TS9. To take it to a tech will probably cost the same if not more than getting a second ISP. All my cables are either Mogami or Planet Waves which are the higher end of the brands. They're shielded and noiseless too.

I've also read that if I switch to clean the gate will kill off the notes?

 

[ParameterMan]

Re: Anyone else have to use TWO noisegates?

Ok, after further thought I see that the amp's gain is multiplying the noise from the OD so much that it's hard to mute without killing everything. So you want to gate both directly before and after the amp's gain.

My idea would be either

Guitar->ISP guitar in/out->NS-2 input->NS-2 send->TS9->NS-2 return->NS-2 output->amp in->loop->ISP dec in/out

Best results if you tune both gates to close at exactly the same time.

Or even better, get a decimator II and do

Guitar->G-string guitar in/out->TS9(+ any other gain boost)->Dec II->amp in->loop->g-string dec in/out

As well as an 1/8" cable from G-string link out to Dec II link in.

 

[GregJr]

Re: Anyone else have to use TWO noisegates?

I find that when I use all outs and ins on the NS2 , there is no tone suck, plus a slight boost.
Guitar>TS9>NS2 input>NS2 send>Amp in>FX send>NS2 return>other pedals>NS2 out> FX return.
Try it and see.

 

[everdrone]

Re: Anyone else have to use TWO noisegates?

decimator gstring2 manual:

http://www.isptechnologies.com/manuals/Decimator II Manual.pdf

this is basically how my setup is:

 

[El Dunco]

Re: Anyone else have to use TWO noisegates?

I haven't played a good high end amplifier that has been impossible to play without a noise-gate. How high do you set the pre-gain and how close are you to the cabinet when you play?

Failing that, maybe there's something wrong with the shielding (unless all peavey's are like that which I wouldn't think so) considering your Marshall didn't make so much noise.

I've opened my Dual Rectifier and changed components by hand and it's still whisper quiet when I stop. (although that isn't saying much when one is proficient at soldering and already given Mesa's construction quality)

Off Topic:

A great mod for anyone with a Rev G Dual Rectifier. Change the gain pot to 1M and change the cap to about .005uf 400v (the .0047uf orange drop does the job nicely especially when it's quite an exotic value to find for a capacitor) and you not only get more gain but more useable gain. All the things people complain about the recto for disappear, it's tighter, smoother, punchier and more modern.

It's like the sound you get when you goose it with something except without messing with any of the recto frequencies and no loss of low end (so you don't even need to goose it anymore and as a result your guitar fits in the mix much better).

Some have equated this particular mod with the "pre 500" rectifier sound which of course isn't 100% accurate but it still in incredible sound for such a simple mod.

Top it off with KT-77s in the power section (on EL34 bias mode) and a 5751 in V1 and you've got an amp that's incredibly hard to beat for a hard rockin' tone and just sheer balls. Plus if you leave the orange channel gain cap and and pot the way they are you keep the benefit of the improved clean channel.

 

[DeadandBuried]

Re: Anyone else have to use TWO noisegates?

I find that when I use all outs and ins on the NS2 , there is no tone suck, plus a slight boost.
Guitar>TS9>NS2 input>NS2 send>Amp in>FX send>NS2 return>other pedals>NS2 out> FX rtur.
Try it and see.[/QUOT

Are you talking about the x formation hook up? I've tried that before and. I didn't like the tone suck, would've been ideal though as less suppressors to use.

 

[DeadandBuried]

Re: Anyone else have to use TWO noisegates?

I have my pre gain on 5, don't stand facing or that near my cab.


I've also noticed Chris from TDWP has 2 gates in his setup. An NS2 in his FX loop. And a regular Decimator in front of his amp:

In fact, both of them have at least an NS-2 and 1 ISP decimator I think.

So the convenient option might be to get another Decimator that way one will take care the pre amp noise, and the other to tame the OD?

 

[DeadandBuried]

Re: Anyone else have to use TWO noisegates?

Ok, after further thought I see that the amp's gain is multiplying the noise from the OD so much that it's hard to mute without killing everything. So you want to gate both directly before and after the amp's gain.

My idea would be either

Guitar->ISP guitar in/out->NS-2 input->NS-2 send->TS9->NS-2 return->NS-2 output->amp in->loop->ISP dec in/out

Best results if you tune both gates to close at exactly the same time.

Or even better, get a decimator II and do

Guitar->G-string guitar in/out->TS9(+ any other gain boost)->Dec II->amp in->loop->g-string dec in/out

As well as an 1/8" cable from G-string link out to Dec II link in.

What is the 1/8" cable for exactly? Is it power or to run in stereo? Do I need it as an essential? And will the ISP Decimator II come with one in the box? The G string one didn't.

 

[ParameterMan]

Re: Anyone else have to use TWO noisegates?

What is the 1/8" cable for exactly? Is it power or to run in stereo? Do I need it as an essential? And will the ISP Decimator II come with one in the box? The G string one didn't.

It's to link them - the Decimator II will be effectively controlled by the G-string. In this case it allows both gates to be keyed off of the direct guitar sound even though the dec II is connected after the OD. You definitely want it for best results.

If the g-string didn't have the cable the dec II won't either. You can just grab something like this from wal-mart or radioshack.

 

[DeadandBuried]

Re: Anyone else have to use TWO noisegates?

Ah I see, so any normal 1/8 inch jack-to-jack? Bear in mind I'm from the UK lol so we don't have a wal-mart or radioshack lol. I don't want to get a cheap assed one as I'm not a fan of cheap cables, though this shouldn't make much difference?

Have taken the plunge and bought the ISP II, so I can compare with the NS-2 and decide which works better after the TS9. I have also emailed a local amp tech to ask about any mods on the head so I can avoid using 2 noise gates if I can. I fear this might kill my sustain and esp on my clean/crunch channel.

Been reading all sorts about the ISP not letting held out notes/chords ring out? I do pinch harmonics alot so I don't want it being cut off real quick, the first show I played with my new set up I turned up the threshold knob too high and it cut off my squealies too quick. This is cos I didn't realise it can't control the pre-amp AND the ts9 noise both at the same time!