Anyone know how to get this tone these days...?

[ledzepp29]

I'm talkin about that violin like singing sustain in the solo of All right now, I also hear it in a bunch of Mick Ralphs solos in Mott's stuff like Ready for love, One of the boys, All the from Memphis, All the young dudes etc. Mick kinda lost that sound when he went to bad company, but still had it some what in 'Can't get enough'. You also hear a similiar tone in alot of Angus' pre-back in black solos. In the small solo in the T Rex song 'metal guru' you can hear that sound too. I know these guys heavy handed vibrato had alot to do with it as well.

I know they all used les pauls/marshalls but is there any way to get that tone with smaller amps(most likely booteek) these days? Something like 20-40 watts, preferably combo, 1x12. And able to be cranked and loud enough when playing with a band but still good for house levels? I know I'll probably get alot of 'only with a plexi' comments but I can't have something that big! Thanks guys

 

[TwilightOdyssey]

Re: Anyone know how to get this tone these days...?

Generally speaking, if you want sustain like that, you need to use a compressor/sustainer.

 

[Hellion]

Re: Anyone know how to get this tone these days...?

"Ready for Love" is a Bad Company song. "All the Way to Memphis" is Mott the Hoople. "All Right Now" is a Free tune with Paul Kossoff on guitar. Are you wanting early Bad Company or Late Mott the Hoople? Mick Ralphs used Strats & Pauls through Marshalls through primarily stack BOTTOMS, you know, the non-slanted cabs. He said they gave him more bottom end. I think he's right.

The songs that you're referring to were recorded at a time where there were not a lot of effects available, it was pretty much straight into the amp. So, I think you should be able to obtain what you're looking for with a bit of compression, and maybe some EQ to add a bit of bottome end definition.

 

[ledzepp29]

Re: Anyone know how to get this tone these days...?

"Ready for Love" is a Bad Company song. "All the Way to Memphis" is Mott the Hoople. "All Right Now" is a Free tune with Paul Kossoff on guitar. Are you wanting early Bad Company or Late Mott the Hoople? Mick Ralphs used Strats & Pauls through Marshalls through primarily stack BOTTOMS, you know, the non-slanted cabs. He said they gave him more bottom end. I think he's right.

you're right, ready for love is a bad company song...but it was written by mick ralphs and recorded by Mott first, I like Motts version much better becuase it actually has a guitar in it! :laugh2: I don't want early Bad Company so much, or late Mott the Hoople because that had Ariel Bender-who replaced Mick. I'm sure you knew that tho.

You're statement about 'more bottom end' really makes a lot of sense because I read an article saying that Paul Kossof used a combination of different speakers in his cabs, including bass speakers.

So what I've learned so for is that a larger amount bottom end is required for this sound, and that a compressor/sustainer will help get the extra needed sustain. Anybody got a small amp in mind that could at least be a building block for those things? Thanks!

 

[Rich_S]

Re: Anyone know how to get this tone these days...?

If you're looking for vintage Marshall tone from a small amp, look into the 18 Watters. They go from stupid-simple DIY up to fancy handwired booteek amps from a bunch of vendors, Marshall included. Check the link in my signature for my own cheap & weird take on this classic design.

As far as that classic sustaining sound goes, it's probably pretty simple. With absolutely no factual basis, I disagree with the compressor/sustainer idea. It's simpler than that: Les Paul, cable, Marshall. Output stage distortion more than preamp, which in those days meant playing loud. These days, we're smart enough to use a small amp, cranked. Pickups: not real hot, so as not to overdrive the preamp, and because they didn't have hot aftermarket pickups in those days.

I've also heard that straight-front cabs give more bottom. Mick Ralphs used them. I think Paul Kossoff used a homemade cab early on (probably straight, 'cuz it's easier to build). Later, he used a rig dubbed "The Enterprise" with Marshall 8-12" cabs. Gotta figure that had some bottom, but I don't know if he would have used it in the studio.

In summation, I would investigate the 18 Watters (or maybe a "Plexi 6V6") and count on using a sealed-back cab with one or two G12H-30's in it, or the beloved G12H-30/Vintage 30 combination. I bet it gets you close, but at reasonable volume.

 

[ledzepp29]

Re: Anyone know how to get this tone these days...?

If you're looking for vintage Marshall tone from a small amp, look into the 18 Watters. They go from stupid-simple DIY up to fancy handwired booteek amps from a bunch of vendors, Marshall included. Check the link in my signature for my own cheap & weird take on this classic design.

As far as that classic sustaining sound goes, it's probably pretty simple. With absolutely no factual basis, I disagree with the compressor/sustainer idea. It's simpler than that: Les Paul, cable, Marshall. Output stage distortion more than preamp, which in those days meant playing loud. These days, we're smart enough to use a small amp, cranked. Pickups: not real hot, so as not to overdrive the preamp, and because they didn't have hot aftermarket pickups in those days.

I've also heard that straight-front cabs give more bottom. Mick Ralphs used them. I think Paul Kossoff used a homemade cab early on (probably straight, 'cuz it's easier to build). Later, he used a rig dubbed "The Enterprise" with Marshall 8-12" cabs. Gotta figure that had some bottom, but I don't know if he would have used it in the studio.

In summation, I would investigate the 18 Watters (or maybe a "Plexi 6V6") and count on using a sealed-back cab with one or two G12H-30's in it, or the beloved G12H-30/Vintage 30 combination. I bet it gets you close, but at reasonable volume.

WOW, thanks alot Rich that was definately helpful. I've heard very little about those 18 watters. I'll see what I kind I can find out on them. Those g12h30's are supposed to have a healthy amount of low end right? So an 18 watter with a 1 or 2x12 g12h30 would be the best I could get with my picky requirements? Would it be loud enough for small gig/jam type settings?

 

[Wattage]

Re: Anyone know how to get this tone these days...?

Man I don't want to seem prejudiced or anything but it is so cool to see a 15 year old into Bolan & Hoople.

Some real good tips, not likely they used a compressor/sustainer type device though. Mostly volume is my guess. Small amps? Sure! You know what is great little amp to check out is the Peavey Delta Blues 1x15. I still have that on my want list. That 15 transmits a lot of lows and it is a cool little amp. If you can find an early one they have real tweed which beats the plastic crap on them now.

Also look around for coiled guitar cords, it is a minor thing but helps get that slightly compressed sound that they had, I know Marc used them not sure abut Mick.

btw did you see the show about Rock Stars kids? They had Rolan Bolan on, I'd never seen him before it was pretty cool.

If you search the Les Paul Forum for Marc Bolan I think you'll find some real cool info about his main LP.

 

[Rich_S]

Re: Anyone know how to get this tone these days...?

My amp uses a simplified 18 Watter circuit with no tremolo and only one channel. It also uses ECL86 ouput tubes instead of EL84's, so it gets the same sound at more like 13 Watts. It's still louder than I need around home, and would be great for jams & many gigs. A lot of people gig with 18 Watters.

There are a bunch of different variations. Check out 18Watt.com for everything you'll ever need to know about them.

Yes, the Celestion G12H-30 is known for its strong low end. The "H" stands for "heavy magnet". They were originally designed as bass speakers, but many people used them for what we now think of as classic rock, Jimi Hendrix most notably. Ted Weber also makes his own versions of them.

 

[Marinblues]

Re: Anyone know how to get this tone these days...?

Forum member Stevo has some great clips with his Marshalls and Seth Lover pickups in his Pauls.

 

[ledzepp29]

Re: Anyone know how to get this tone these days...?

Man I don't want to seem prejudiced or anything but it is so cool to see a 15 year old into Bolan & Hoople.

Some real good tips, not likely they used a compressor/sustainer type device though. Mostly volume is my guess. Small amps? Sure! You know what is great little amp to check out is the Peavey Delta Blues 1x15. I still have that on my want list. That 15 transmits a lot of lows and it is a cool little amp. If you can find an early one they have real tweed which beats the plastic crap on them now.

Also look around for coiled guitar cords, it is a minor thing but helps get that slightly compressed sound that they had, I know Marc used them not sure abut Mick.

btw did you see the show about Rock Stars kids? They had Rolan Bolan on, I'd never seen him before it was pretty cool.

If you search the Les Paul Forum for Marc Bolan I think you'll find some real cool info about his main LP.

Ya, I seem to get the same attention from older guys when I wear my T Rex shirt :laugh2: my dad got me into the early 70's glam and brit rock, great music! my favorite guitar styles as well.

I've heard of those Peavey Deltas, I'll have to see if I can get clips. Heres some amps that look cool, http://www.trinityamps.com/ not TOO expensive compared to the other booteeks. I also have one of those black radio shack coil cables that I use all the time. I want to get one of those 'bullet cable' coiled cables, they look really nice with bullet shell casings as the inputs! They're like $40 and I'm not sure they do the same thing to your tone as the cheapie coiled ones do tho.

My friend told me about the Rolan Bolan thing, isn't he like half black? I bet he loves his name :laugh2:
I've also learned alot about Marcs les paul from the LPF, apparently it's Jeff Becks old 59 burst that Marc bought off him that kept getting neck repairs until it finally just got a les paul custom neck!

 

[Wattage]

Re: Anyone know how to get this tone these days...?

Rolan is half black his mom is Gloria Jones, she sang with Marc and on her own.

Rolan's stuff sounds a lot like his Dad at least what I heard of it.I am going to have to check it out a bit more seriously. He was only a baby when his Dad died in the car crash, what a weird life it must be?

You know Marc used a bunch of Sound City amps and they can be had pretty reasonably for the most part, the other thing you could look for is some old Univox amps. A lot of those had similar features to some of the Sound City stuff.

When you look for a coiled cord try to find a white one, Marc's usually were white.

 

[Rich_S]

Re: Anyone know how to get this tone these days...?

Funny you should mention Univox...

My "Phonivox" 13 Watter

As I describe on my web page, the Univox's are great amps in the Marshall vein, and fairly inexpensive these days. The problem is, they're too big. The route to classic tone at reasonable volume lies not with the same amps those guys used but similar, smaller amps. Output-stage overdrive is the key, and the only way to get it is to crank it up. Hence my wack-job, two-tone-blue DIY project, the low-power combo Univox never made.

P.S. - I had no idea those Trinity 18 Watters were so reasonable. They're on of the big sponsors of 18Watt.com, but I always assumed they got booteek prices for their amps.

 

[ledzepp29]

Re: Anyone know how to get this tone these days...?

Rich, listen to some of the clips of the 18 watter, the one titled BillyLespaux2 gets very close to the tone I'm talking about, this guys style is a little more on the jazzy side than the players I mentioned above which makes it sound not quite so much like it. but the rhythm sounds are almost identical to that Mick Ralphs-Mott the Hoople sound.

Wattage, I listened to some of the songs on Rolans site and I liked it a lot! His voice is like a combination of Lenny Kravitz' and Marc's.

 

[TwilightOdyssey]

Re: Anyone know how to get this tone these days...?

With absolutely no factual basis, I disagree with the compressor/sustainer idea. It's simpler than that: Les Paul, cable, Marshall. Output stage distortion more than preamp, which in those days meant playing loud. These days, we're smart enough to use a small amp, cranked. Pickups: not real hot, so as not to overdrive the preamp, and because they didn't have hot aftermarket pickups in those days. .

LOL!
The opening line had me smiling

You're overlooking the fact that the guitar tracks were, in all likelihood, compressed like CRAZY during tracking, probably using a vintage tube compressor and EQ. As a listener, you're hearing the end of THAT entire signal chain.

Yes, the player's signal chain was probably that simple, but in tracking, mixing and mastering? LOTS of compression + EQ on rock guitars, man.

 

[Rich_S]

Re: Anyone know how to get this tone these days...?

LOL!
The opening line had me smiling

You're overlooking the fact that the guitar tracks were, in all likelihood, compressed like CRAZY during tracking, probably using a vintage tube compressor and EQ. As a listener, you're hearing the end of THAT entire signal chain.

Yes, the player's signal chain was probably that simple, but in tracking, mixing and mastering? LOTS of compression + EQ on rock guitars, man.

Agreed. However, we have to sort of mentally separate the guitarist's rig from the studio processing that goes on afterward. All budding toneologists need to keep in mind that their live sound in the room is NEVER going to sound just like the record, since the record doesn't sound like Bolan's (or Ralph's or Kossoff's) sound did in HIS room. But we definitely don't want zepp to think he needs a Dynacomp in his guitar signal chain, 'cuz that's not going to help. (Nothing against the Dynacomp - I loved what Andy Summers did with his. )

 

[twoheadedboy]

Re: Anyone know how to get this tone these days...?

I've heard really good things about Aiken amps when it comes to achieving old Plexi type tones at moderate volumes. If you're going for low volumes, I don't think having a plexi style preamp isn't going to get you there on it's own. The real plexi tones come from a plexi being run really loud, and the interaction between the poweramp, preamp and speakers helps to create that tone. From what I hear, Aiken does a good job of compensating and getting those vibes at lower volumes.

 

[Wattage]

Re: Anyone know how to get this tone these days...?

I found it, thanks to John Catto. Marc used to use VampPower amps. Man how cool would it be to score one of those?

 

[ledzepp29]

Re: Anyone know how to get this tone these days...?

I found it, thanks to John Catto. Marc used to use VampPower amps. Man how cool would it be to score one of those?

I googled them, they seem to be another one of those 100 watt monsters!

well, after doing some research I've found that the Trinity 18 TMB-MV looks like my best bet.

Trinity 18 Watt Overview
The Trinity 18 uses a pair or EL-84 output tubes, 3 12AX7 preamps, and an EZ-81 rectifier. It is a Cathode Bias, Class AB all-tube design using a tube rectifier. Original spec power and output transformers are used exclusively.

The amplifier does away with controlled or corrective negative feedback, allowing the amplifier to run "open loop" or wide band. This is why the 18 Watt sounds full and rich at low or high volume levels. These 'features of design' are very much a part of the distinctive tone.

The Trinity 18 TMB-MV is a dual channel amp with Channel 1 - Tone and Volume, 2 inputs and Channel 2 - Treble, Midrange, Bass, Volume and Master Volume, 1 input. The tone controls are of standard Marshall “Tone Stack” design. The TMB channel incorporates a master volume control and is a higher gain design similar to the Marshall 2203 of the late 70s. The master volume allows the player to selectively dial in overdrive distortion for that ‘crunchy’ Marshall sound. http://www.trinityamps.com/

the clips on the site pretty much nailed the sound I'm going for and the features of this amp are absolutely perfect. And with the marshall 18 watt reissues costing $2250, and this in a head version only $950 and hand wired to boot!...I could get an avatar 1x12 with a g12h30 and I'd be set! well...better start saving my pennies...

o ya...does the fact that it has a tube rectifier add to that compression you guys were talking about? I think I remember hearing that tube rectifiers compress the tone more than solid state ones...

 

[Gearjoneser]

Re: Anyone know how to get this tone these days...?

Fargen has been making good low powered plexi type amps....the miniplex and mightyplex. They have a switch to reconfigure the EQ from 60's/70's/80's.
Those, and any 50w amp with EL-34's (head or combo) should do the trick.
Then, buy a Paul and install either Seths or 59's. A cleanboost type OD will be all you need to boost up the EL34 tone for solos. To me, THAT's the DNA to get the tones you're looking for.

 

[JeffB]

Re: Anyone know how to get this tone these days...?

Les Paul, cable, Marshall. Output stage distortion more than preamp, ..... playing loud.....Pickups: not real hot, so as not to overdrive the preamp

Best advice in the thread, IMO ..exactly what I would have said. Les Paul with PAF style pups through a cranked non MV marshall w/ el34s.