Are Black Winters not supposed to be blistering high output?

[Rex_Rocker]

Re: Are Black Winters not supposed to be blistering high output?

It sucks not having anything to compare it to other than the low output PAFs in my guitars. I may be picking up a DD for one of my other guitars later today, though.

 

[EDX]

Re: Are Black Winters not supposed to be blistering high output?

hmmm i dunno how guys find the black winter actually hotter than the duncan distortion when it's not!

some mV numbers from duncan:

SH-4 JB Model 737
Black Winter, HB Bridge 763
SH-6b Duncan Distortion 792
LW-CH2b,LiveWire II,Classic,HB 936
SH-13 Dimebucker 1160
LW-Must LiveWire Dave Mustaine,b 1368

yup, the black winter is a in-between of the jb and distortion in terms of output

if you want a seriously hot passive bucker go with the dimebucker, if you have the buck you could try an el diablo or a SLUG (yup the SLUG shall be always in caps, to remind us how much is the output difference from any other passive pickup)

 

[Rex_Rocker]

Re: Are Black Winters not supposed to be blistering high output?

hmmm i dunno how guys find the black winter actually hotter than the duncan distortion when it's not!

some mV numbers from duncan:

SH-4 JB Model 737
Black Winter, HB Bridge 763
SH-6b Duncan Distortion 792
LW-CH2b,LiveWire II,Classic,HB 936
SH-13 Dimebucker 1160
LW-Must LiveWire Dave Mustaine,b 1368

yup, the black winter is a in-between of the jb and distortion in terms of output

if you want a seriously hot passive bucker go with the dimebucker, if you have the buck you could try an el diablo or a SLUG (yup the SLUG shall be always in caps, to remind us how much is the output difference from any other passive pickup)

I don't know, man. Lots of people have disputed the mV data that was posted. For starters, it shows the WLH as much lower output than the '59B. I have both. It's definitely not lower output.

 

[Ironbird666]

Re: Are Black Winters not supposed to be blistering high output?

hmmm i dunno how guys find the black winter actually hotter than the duncan distortion when it's not!

some mV numbers from duncan:

SH-4 JB Model 737
Black Winter, HB Bridge 763
SH-6b Duncan Distortion 792
LW-CH2b,LiveWire II,Classic,HB936
SH-13 Dimebucker1160
LW-Must LiveWire Dave Mustaine,b1368

yup, the black winter is a in-between of the jb and distortion in terms of output

if you want a seriously hot passive bucker go with the dimebucker, if you have the buck you could try an el diablo or a SLUG (yup the SLUG shall be always in caps, to remind us how much is the output difference from any other passive pickup)

It may just be the character of the BW versus the DD. I find the DD to be a bit more "together" sounding while the BW is more rough around the edges. Maybe it makes it appear hotter? It just has a nastier feel through my rig. I love them both so I have no issues with either of them. Hah!

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[Demanic]

Re: Are Black Winters not supposed to be blistering high output?

I think that the degree to which a pickup presents an agressive attack greatly influences it's perceived "hotness".

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[Rex_Rocker]

Re: Are Black Winters not supposed to be blistering high output?

Yeah, it may just be that the PAF Pro is really hot for an 8.4K humbucker.

 

[Mez Cal]

Re: Are Black Winters not supposed to be blistering high output?

This whole conversation is weird to me. I have DD's, a Custom, a JB, BW's, EMG 81's, a PATB-2, and a Nazgul, and my BW loaded guitars are higher output than the majority of what I listed. They saturate harder through my amp (Peavey Invective) than the DD's I have and the Nazgul sounds cleaner too. The closest in output are the 81's and the PATB-2; that's not to say the DD's aren't close but there's a noticeable increase in saturation when I plug in the BW's. I owned a 59/C for a while and the BW was head and shoulders hotter than the 59/C, for comparison.


Out of the pickups you listed and my experience with them, I would place the BW hottest. The DD and Nazgul are pretty close but the Nazgul sounds more aggressive due to the midrange voicing. The Custom and JB are sort of a toss-up to me. But are hot in their own ways but I don't feel they are quite as hot as the previously mentioned. Well, the JB is pretty close so maybe if you slap a ceramic magnet in it but with the A5 mag, nah. You should be able to get the job done with any of those pups honestly. They all have plenty enough output; it's more of a matter of which voicing you prefer.

Now this is a wealth of knowledge. ....thank you

 

[Mez Cal]

Re: Are Black Winters not supposed to be blistering high output?

If you wanted to overdo it, you could go SLUG bridge and El Diablo neck.

Do it Rex!

 

[Joey Voltage]

Re: Are Black Winters not supposed to be blistering high output?

Yeah, it may just be that the PAF Pro is really hot for an 8.4K humbucker.

It’s not particularly, but it’s where it’s voicing lies that’s the key. It has a more noticeable midrange and presence than a typical paf type pickup which is a very guitar friendly frequency range, with more focus due to the shortish Allen poles. All these things are going to skew the perception of how “hot” it is.

 

[ItsaBass]

Re: Are Black Winters not supposed to be blistering high output?

Once you get past a certain point, higher output pickups stop really sounding "louder" and just make your tone more compressed (assuming the same amp with similar settings). E.Q. changes a lot too, not only due to the pickups themselves, but due to how much they overdrive your amp. E.Q. has a very important affect on perceived volume. Higher output pickups tend to smooth out the treble tones, in which cases they don't seem as loud to the human brain.

How the pickup's output is received by your amp has a whole lot to do with it. This is why I can't deal with pickups past a certain level of output. I mostly play with low-headroom amps, I have an extremely heavy right hand, and I like dead strings or pure nickel strings. Thus high output pickups send my amps into Mudsville way too early. My most extreme 'buckers are in the neighborhood of 13K, and they only really sound great through my higher wattage amps. I can't tell you how many JBs and the like I have pulled from guitars, to replace them with pickups in the 7–8 KOhm range. I just can't get anything but mud from pickups like the JB with my standard setup (12W–25 Watt 1x12 combos).

Point being, in order to get the "best" out of the Black Winter, an amp with more headroom might be necessary.

 

[Rex_Rocker]

Re: Are Black Winters not supposed to be blistering high output?

That's the thing! I'm comparing DI's, not "perceived" output here. Yes, the DI's are louder, as expected, but only a few dB's louder. Not in a whole different league, like I was expecting.

I'm liking the voicing of the BW, though. It has aggro high-mids, but it's still beefy. It's VERY tight. Much tighter than the WLH it replaced. Still not decided if it's a keeper, but so far I'm leaning towards yes.

And thank you for the output comparison, Ironbird. I'm definitely interested in trying the Nazgul now if it can keep up with the DD.

 

[Rex_Rocker]

Re: Are Black Winters not supposed to be blistering high output?

It’s not particularly, but it’s where it’s voicing lies that’s the key. It has a more noticeable midrange and presence than a typical paf type pickup which is a very guitar friendly frequency range, with more focus due to the shortish Allen poles. All these things are going to skew the perception of how “hot” it is.

It's not just "perception", though. The actual DI's of the PAF Pro peak higher than the WLH which is what? Like 9K, I think.

 

[Ironbird666]

Re: Are Black Winters not supposed to be blistering high output?

That's the thing! I'm comparing DI's, not "perceived" output here. Yes, the DI's are louder, as expected, but only a few dB's louder. Not in a whole different league, like I was expecting.

I'm liking the voicing of the pickup, though. It has aggro high-mids, but it's still beefy. It's VERY tight. Much tighter than the WLH it replaced. Still not decided if it's a keeper, but so far I'm leaning towards yes.

And thank you for the output comparison, Ironbird. I'm definitely interested in trying the Nazgul now if it can keep up with the DD.

Nazgul is (or seems to me through my rig) tighter than both of them, so if the tightness is weird for you it's something to consider. It's indeed loud and pissed though, that's for sure. Lol

I've seen people comment on it being muddy but that's not my experience. It has a forceful low end but it's really tight and compressed, sort of jumps out on palm mutes. If you like the DD and BW you'll find the Nazgul is at least in the ballpark of those two.

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[Rex_Rocker]

Re: Are Black Winters not supposed to be blistering high output?

Oh, no, I do like tight. That's what I like the most about the Black Winter and why I'm moving away from PAFs and back into high output pickups in the first place.

I might have to stick the Nazgul in another guitar. I've got a DD on the way too.

 

[Mez Cal]

Re: Are Black Winters not supposed to be blistering high output?

Oh, no, I do like tight. That's what I like the most about the Black Winter and why I'm moving away from PAFs and back into high output pickups in the first place.

I might have to stick the Nazgul in another guitar. I've got a DD on the way too.

Awesome! Get the Nazgul ...you gotta let me know how it "feels" compared to your BW & DD...
thx for this thread