Are Duncan PAFs the red headed stepchild?

[Joejitsu]

So everyone is always on the search for that authentic PAF sound. As we all know the original PAFs had a lot of variation, meaning the “authentic” PAF sound is in fact a range of sounds and finding what sound works best to your ears in your guitar. There are no less than 300 companies offering their own spin on the “true PAF sound”. People who can’t afford Duncan buy cheaper brands like GFS and most say they are just as good “if not better” than the Duncan they tried one time years ago. Meanwhile, there are some pickup makers that are 3 and 4 times as pricey as a set of Duncan’s (Tom Holmes, Lollars etc). People that can’t or won’t pay that much for a pickup buy the Duncan’s and again most of them will say the Duncan’s are just as good.

So the question is, is there a certain point at which the pickup build and sound quality is just as good as it gets and paying any more is just a scam in which you are fooled into thinking your $600 set is so much better than a $150 set of Duncan’s because it came in a fancy little box with straw and a wax seal? Or, is there a genuine reason you are paying more for those $600 sets that is perceptible in sound quality as well as price tag?

I ask this because I have had a couple sets of Duncan pickups for various guitars and my impressions have been mixed. I am looking to replace my burstbucker pros in my Les Paul standard and I’ve read good reviews on the whole lotta set, but if there is something better out there I may look elsewhere. After all, if all I could afford is GFS, I would probably be impressed with their positive reviews and not look into saving up for Duncan’s, then I would go around trying to convince everyone they are overpaying for the Duncan’s.

 

[dxlxntxxlxr]

Re: Are Duncan PAFs the red headed stepchild?

Depends on how u look at it. For example, I don't really feel that expensive Duncans are much better than the more run of the mill Duncans. The opposite is true of DiMarzio. Higher end DiMarzios are the ****! Fishmans are worth the price if that's the sound you want cause no other pickup will get you the fishman sound. Currently my favorites are the bkp juggernauts. Perfect conglomeration of every trait I look for in a set of pickups

 

[Empty Pockets]

Re: Are Duncan PAFs the red headed stepchild?

Whether or not your pickups sound "better" or are "worth it" is a completely subjective, personal opinion.

 

[TVFV]

Re: Are Duncan PAFs the red headed stepchild?

If you know what you dislike about your pickups and know what you want fix with new pickups then you should be happy with any pickup purchase. Also helps to adjust your amp accordingly.

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[beaubrummels]

Are Duncan PAFs the red headed stepchild?

Sometimes folks who say a cheap pickup is as good as something else are using equipment that doesn’t expose the subtle differences, so they can’t hear the difference. Other times people do find a pickup, regardless of price, that makes that sound they were looking for in the particular guitar they are using through the particular amp they are using, while a pricier custom recreation wasn’t able to reproduce that tone in their particular rig.

I’ve tried cheap and I’ve tried custom-expensive and in between. If you don’t have a big budget, one way is to start cheap and work your way to expensive, just stop when you get the sound you wanted.

Another way is do your homework, read review after review, listen to samples and demos, and take your best educated shot at the one set of pickups you think might be the ones. Just know that once they are in your guitar going through your amp, you’re going to hear something different than all the samples. Be open to changing your settings and working with the pickups before dismissing them.

Tone isn’t automatic. Sticking PAFs in your guitar isn’t going to suddenly turn your entire rig sound into a vintage 50’s tone. When you mod the pickups, you may have to rebalance everything and find the sweet spot again between the guitar, the amp and the new pickups.

Getting those results is not guaranteed by any price point. People charge a price because that’s what it takes to produce the product and stay in business. That’s completely separate from whether that product will work for you.

 

[Silence Kid]

Re: Are Duncan PAFs the red headed stepchild?

How many people on a search for "PAF tone" or seduced by that idea have actually played one? Perhaps they've heard one recorded (probably using only other items of 'holy grail' gear, with a lot of extra production thrown in.) I think the concept has become pretty meaningless, and is just a way of saying 'a low-ish output humbucking pickup - that also sounds like god.'

 

[Lake Placid Blues]

Re: Are Duncan PAFs the red headed stepchild?

As you say there is not one original PAF tone. And the thing about PAF clones are that one design may not work in one guitar but are magic another.

 

[Jeff_H]

Re: Are Duncan PAFs the red headed stepchild?

There are some excellent winders out there making wonderful PAF "style" pickups. I've generally found that the more accurate the components are to the original PAF's, the higher the cost. You can get incredibly detailed into specs, down to magnet metallurgy, specific wire insulation and the list goes on and on. One advantage of some of the smaller winders is the one on one service you receive and their willingness to make changes to their products to meet your needs. Of course SD will do the same in the Custom Shop, but just due to the scale of operations it may not feel as intimate.


Each person has to decide what level of detail and accuracy they want and are willing to pay for. Also, each winder has his own spin or flavor on the PAF sound, so sometimes the only way to know if you'll like it or not is to just try it. Most offer a money back guarantee or offer to rewind until you are happy. If you do need to sell a set that just doesn't work, you can usually recoup a good portion of the cost selling them used.


Just because SD is big doesn't mean his PAF's aren't as accurate as anyone else. SD got to spend quite a bit of time with Seth Lover as they reproduced his original design, zo it's hard to get better insight than that. I would put the Seth Lover, Antiquity and many of their Custom Shop models up against any set out there. SD went to great lengths to get accurate components and due to economy of scale can offer the same accuracy at a more attractive price vs smaller producers.

I bought nothing but SD pickups for 17+ years and was completely happy. They're still my favorite brand. But recently I've stepped out and found some really nice PAF style pickups made by others that are fantastic in their own right, and slightly different than what SD offers, but that doesn't take away from how much I enjoy SD products.

No, SD is not the red headed stepchild. He is the person that started the truly accurate PAF replica with the Seth Lover and Antiquity back in the 90's. Sure, a couple of guys on a smaller scale may have been doing it earlier, but SD brought it to the general guitar playing community. Can you buy better? Depends what you call better. I don't think in terms of better, I think in terms of different flavors for different people and needs. That's all.

 

[Mincer]

Re: Are Duncan PAFs the red headed stepchild?

Well, the Seths and Antiquities have a sort of magic to them. They have what I need out of a PAF-type, so I stick with them. Judging by the reviews on other forums, there are lots that agree with me.

 

[jmh151]

Re: Are Duncan PAFs the red headed stepchild?

Depends on how u look at it. For example, I don't really feel that expensive Duncans are much better than the more run of the mill Duncans. The opposite is true of DiMarzio. Higher end DiMarzios are the ****! Fishmans are worth the price if that's the sound you want cause no other pickup will get you the fishman sound. Currently my favorites are the bkp juggernauts. Perfect conglomeration of every trait I look for in a set of pickups

Which are the "higher end" Dimarzio's you're talking about? The all seem to be evenly priced and made

 

[justFred]

Re: Are Duncan PAFs the red headed stepchild?

choose the artist using a Les Paul standard that is closest to the sound you want...find out what their rig is...pickups are just one piece of the puzzle...

 

[GuitarStv]

Re: Are Duncan PAFs the red headed stepchild?

I have a '59 neck and a Seth bridge that I like to use in my Epiphone Dot. Didn't buy them because they're PAFs, I bought them because they were the best sounding clean humbuckers based on the clips and recordings I could find. They've not let me down sound-wise.

 

[SFW]

Re: Are Duncan PAFs the red headed stepchild?

I’ve played 59s, Pearly Gates, Antiquities, and a bunch of other expensive PAF style pickups. It’s always been about what works with that particular guitar. I’ve gotten great tones out of all of them, when paired with the right guitar. Use what works and don’t be concerned with the price. That said, you don’t have to go into debt to get great tones.


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[AlexR]

Re: Are Duncan PAFs the red headed stepchild?

Pickups are incredibly individual, as are guitars. I have found the closer you get to the actuality of how a PAF really is (including winding pattern, wire and magnet custom fabricated) the more finicky it often is.

Duncan does not go all out in recreating a PAF clone. The Seth captures what the PAF patent was based on, and the Antiquities make that sound like a 1950's age pickup. But that is a fully symmetrical wind using modern materials and (I think) the same hardware Duncan uses on all their regular low output pickups.
This does not mean the pickups sound 'inferior', in fact generally speaking you will find these 2 pickups will work in more situations as they rely less on the guitar/pickup meshing to work their magic.

You can spend exorbitant sums on clones, that go all out in making the pickup sound (and look) like a specific PAF set - most high-end clone winders have sacrificed a good pickup or 2 in order to fully examine the minutest detail. But custom fabrication in small runs costs, and prices can be 10 times what is used for generic pickups without huge tonal differences.

But a PAF tone is not always the 'best'. Most would find the actuality of a PAF too bright or biting. In that way, the 'generic low output pickup' is a perfect match. Not so trebley, but with much of the features of the PAF - like the more open tone and roll-back to clean.
Additionally, even those who really are into what a legit PAF offers tonally, it might not suit the guitar in question. I have a Hagstom semihollow that had Antiquities in it, followed by Zhangbucker Pure Handwound - neither really was right for the guitar. Finally the set that suited best was 2 Gibson 490R pickups with short A5 mags fitted.


But the only way you will ever know what pickups are the 'best' for you is to have a revolving door of pickups sequentially fitted until you sort out what suits.

 

[OsvyRock]

Re: Are Duncan PAFs the red headed stepchild?

The P.A.F. thing can be too many things in specs, sounds, etc. Beyond the P.A.F. (whatever), the important is finding a pickup that truly suits you, your playing style, gear and helps you get the tone, and response you want/need out of your instrument. Tone/Pickup Searching is a Quest! For example, (I don't know if it's considered a P.A.F. sounding pickup), but the Slash Alnico II Pro is an amazing sounding vintage pickup. It has clarity, power, it cuts, and in the right setup an amazing set. Sadly, I couldn't get the best out of it. Enter Alnico V pickups from Seymour Duncan (like the 59', JB, the STK-S), and is a whole different story. Everything is test and trial, forget about the marketing BS. If the pickup does what you want/need it to do, everything's well!

 

[oilpit]

Re: Are Duncan PAFs the red headed stepchild?

I think P.A.F. is a really problematic term, this thread is perfect evidence of that. It's been so long since those first pickups were wound and there has been so much change and innovation over the years that not only has the whole classification become an incredibly confusing and convoluted. You've got dozens and dozens of different pickup winders all trying to get this kind of magic vintage tone that probably has as much or more to due with the rest of the rig than the pickups themselves, and they're all trying to do it in a vacuum.

On top of that the original pickups weren't wound with an ounce of consistency, they used 3 or 4 different types of magnets based on availability and nothing else, there was no balancing of bridge/neck pickup. They just made them and installed them in the guitars.

All of that isn't even getting into the fact that they used these pickups in at least 3 different models of guitar.

IMO tonally referring to something as a P.A.F. tone is basically useless without further description.

 

[plasticscouse]

Re: Are Duncan PAFs the red headed stepchild?

Here in the UK SD pickups are expensive. They are, depending on model, in the same price bracket as a lot of our custom made and more customisable makers.

It actually makes more sense to go to Bareknuckle or other smaller makers possibly £30 or £40 cheaper than SD Antiquities, Pearly Gates or Custom Shop to get any tone your after. Especially PAFs.

All of the SD pickups I’ve bought have never really stayed in my guitars, just haven’t nailed the tone I’m looking for, too boomy (59s) too hot (pearly gates neck, that’s now a bridge pup for my epiphone) or just not right (slash)

I’ve just bought House of Tone pickups (try them!) and just know they’re right for me. They claim to be PAF replicas (TruPAF is the model name) but I haven’t tried the real things. They’re also £50 cheaper than covered Slash pups.

So my point really is, in the UK at least, it’s worth going to boutique because you’re getting the custom shop experience, straw and wooden box cheaper than off the shelf SD that may not be your taste.

So in my experience in the UK, going boutique and custom is the better option.

 

[superpete]

Re: Are Duncan PAFs the red headed stepchild?

So the question is, is there a certain point at which the pickup build and sound quality is just as good as it gets and paying any more is just a scam in which you are fooled into thinking your $600 set is so much better than a $150 set of Duncan’s because it came in a fancy little box with straw and a wax seal? Or, is there a genuine reason you are paying more for those $600 sets that is perceptible in sound quality as well as price tag?

I think the term scam is a little misleading...a $35 GFS pickup might sound just as good to someone as a $600 set with a fancy box AND there might be a genuine reason you are paying more for one. GFS are made in China with low labor costs...Duncan uses high quality material and have the great mind and experience of seymour duncan and others designing them, but they are a large manufacturer who, I assume, get volume discounts on materials and have the luxury of large orders from GC and Sweetwater et al to keep costs down for the little guys...a small winder paying a premium for parts and making them to order would cost more per pickup to produce. They all sound good, some will sound better. If the one that costs 50% more sounds 5% better, only you can decide if that's worth it to you.

 

[Rex_Rocker]

Re: Are Duncan PAFs the red headed stepchild?

Which are the "higher end" Dimarzio's you're talking about? The all seem to be evenly priced and made

Aren't some more expensive than others? Pretty sure there are a couple that are 10 or 15 bucks more expensive than others in the humbucker range.

I wouldn't classify them as being in a different range or "higher end", though. They all seem to be equally well made, IME.

 

[devastone]

Re: Are Duncan PAFs the red headed stepchild?

Aren't some more expensive than others? Pretty sure there are a couple that are 10 or 15 bucks more expensive than others in the humbucker range.

I wouldn't classify them as being in a different range or "higher end", though. They all seem to be equally well made, IME.

Just like Duncan, artist models will cost more because the artist is getting a cut.